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A question of Yeast......

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

A question of Yeast......

Although I don't stick to recipes all that often, a question arises about yeast times.  I don't know the proper terminology for all this stuff so please help me rise to the occasion.

I just finished the first phase of making the dough for croissants.  I set up the warm milk/water and yeast for the suggested time.  According to the recipe, I was to leave it alone for 10 minutes until "frothy".  I wondered of 10, 20, 30 minutes made any difference.

Also, the instructions said to let it rise for an hour in a warm kitchen then set it over night in a refrigerator.
Why the first hour in warm?
Would it make a difference would it make for two or more hours before the refrigeration?

Will any of this affect flavor? amount of rise? Texture? Anything?

Aside from buttery and light croissants, I also want a good chewing bread with that beer flavor.

 

 

 

Stevo's picture
Stevo

If it is fast action or instant yeast then it doesn't need activating at all, just throw it in before mixing, but keep it away from the salt. If it is active dried yeast then it does need activating, but a longer time won't help. It will continue to multiply as long as it has food and so if you left it too long you could either end up with dead or tired yeast that had run out of food or more yeast - leading to a shorter proof time. Most experts say that fresh yeast can be crumbled straight into the flour, but I don't use it that often so I couldn't comment.

I generally wait until the yeast starts popping up on the surface of the liquid and pour it straight in, that can be as short as a minute or so with warm sweet liquids and it seems to work great.

proth5's picture
proth5

a lot of time working on croissants and gotten pretty fair at them, so I'll weigh in.

A lot of recipes are written for Active Dry Yeast (ADY). This particular yeast has fallen out of favor, but somehow seems to be widely available. This type of yeast should be dissolved in liquid prior to its use.

Similarly, a lot of recipes were written for ADY when techniques for yeast preservation were not good, so yeast would be "proofed" (or "proved") prior to use. The step in your recipe that has you leave the yeast until "frothy" is exactly that - a proving step to assure that the yeast is, indeed, alive. It is most likely not needed unless you have yeast that has passed its expiration date or has been stored under very bad conditions.

So, proving longer really just takes up time. You accomplish very little as you are not actually fermenting flour - you are simply demonstrating that the yeast is alive.

Instant Dry Yeast (IDY) does not require the dissolving step and can simply be added to the dough. Not to be too contrary, the whole process of carefully keeping the yeast separate from the salt is folklore. I scale my IDY into the same container as the salt and add it to the dough in one fell swoop - never a single problem.

And yes, fresh yeast can be crumbled directly into the flour. If I could buy it easily, I would use nothing else.

With making croissants, you want to get fermentation started, but then have it occur rather slowly. Fermentation creates acids that will strengthen the dough. However with a croissant, you are also repeatedly rolling and folding the dough in the lamination process and this also creates strength. You need to keep this is balance - especially if you are doing this by hand (rather than using a mechanical sheeter).

It is always possible to put the yeast into a permanent state of dormancy by activating it (during the proof or during the mx) and then immediately chilling it. So the instructions have you allowing the dough to warm a bit (for an hour) to start fermentation activity before chilling it to relax it and prepare for the lamination process. Here is where you need to balance dough strength with your arm strength. Will two hours be too much? I don't know. I don't ever do it because I am usually under some kind of time pressure. Certainly an extra hour of fermentation in a warm room will have some effect.

I like to use a liquid pre ferment in my croissants. This brings a lot of good fermentation flavor and the liquid pre ferment adds to the extensibility of the dough and makes the lamination process easier. You might want to research recipes that use a pre ferment - there is a lovely one in "Advanced Bread and Pastry."

The nature of a croissant is to be light and flaky with a taste of both the fermented dough and the lamination butter. Generally we look for an even "honeycomb"  in cross section (this is a result of well done lamination) and a flaky outer crust. Your goals of a "good chewing bread with that beer flavor" are certainly curious in this context, but I hope this helps.

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

"If it is fast action or instant yeast then it doesn't need activating at all, just throw it in before mixing, but keep it away from the salt."

Interesting.  How do I do that if the recipe calls for salt?   What effect does salt have on instant yeast?

"If it is active dried yeast then it does need activating, but a longer time won't help."
So, a longer non-activating time won't help ? (-:

"It will continue to multiply as long as it has food and so if you left it too long you could either end up with dead or tired yeast that had run out of food or more yeast - leading to a shorter proof time."

Can "Too long" be determined visually?  What might the minimum time be?
small bubbles? large bubbles? Bubbling stopped?

Does "shorter proof time" translate to not rising as much or does it suggest that I would not need to leave it rise as long?

"I generally wait until the yeast starts popping up on the surface of the liquid and pour it straight in, that can be as short as a minute or so with warm sweet liquids and it seems to work great."

Does the yeast actually surface and you can see it or do you refer to seeing bubbles?
If it is bubbles, are you suggesting that once I see them then it has set long enough and longer, larger bubbles, is a waste of time possibly leading to a less effective yeast?  That may be the reason why I have not yet been pinned against the wall as Lucy was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

I guess your response was posted while i was responding to the other post.

"Certainly an extra hour of fermentation in a warm room will have some effect."
Extra time: beneficial? Not beneficial?

"liquid pre ferment"
I have heard of this before.  Where do I find this?

"there is a lovely [recipe] in "Advanced Bread and Pastry.""
URL or reference?

"Your goals of a "good chewing bread with that beer flavor" are certainly curious in this context, but I hope this helps."
The reference to "chewing bread" was when making something other than croissants.  Maybe that statement belonged in a new thread.

Side notes: My recipe calls for four sticks of butter and while they were baking it streamed out of the croissants and they were not light and fluffy.  This time, I used three sticks and maybe fewer next batch.  I also drop 2 or 3 grains of salt on the top of each pastry before baking.  This gives the illusion that a lot of salt was used in the dough.

 

proth5's picture
proth5

Extra fermentation time before chilling will certainly increase flavor somewhat, but if it does this at a cost of making the dough too strong it is not beneficial. This is where the baker needs sufficient knowledge or practice to make a judgment call. This is why I prefer to use a pre ferment.

I do not understand your question of "where do I find this?" in reference to a liquid pre ferment. If you do not understand pre ferments, I can explain this to you or you can look at the "lessons" on this site. Pre ferments are a fundamental baking technique and something that should be understood before going into laminated pastry production.

"Advanced Bread and Pastry - a Professional Approach" by Michel Suas is a book that can be purchased from The San Francisco Baking Institute and I am sure from other sources. It is a comprehensive book with both bread and pastry techniques and may be overkill for you since you seldom use recipes.

One of the important things with croissants is proofing time. After lamination has been completed and the croissants shaped, they must be proofed until they are almost soft to the touch and fully proofed. They will expand more in the oven not so much from the oven spring provided by the yeast, but from water vapor expansion. The lamination must have been properly done and the dough able to hold this expansion.  I proof mine for four hours or more. When croissants are not fully proofed, they will behave exactly as you described. Reducing the butter will have little effect on this issue.

Without your full formula expressed in weights, I cannot say more.

Hope this helps.

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

It is not that I don't use recipes, it is that I tend to modify according to need for experiment or to mix recipes.   Probably not a good technique but it does afford some interesting results.  Not having all the ingredients doesn't always stop me either.

"Reducing the butter will have little effect on this issue."
Is it common for butter to be dripping out of the pastries while they are baking and pooling on the baking sheet?  Granted, the fumes of scalding butter might add some burnt flavoring to the croissant though...

"Proofed until almost soft" as terminology, is not in my recipe.  It does say to leave them rest before baking.  I will check this.

Continuing the question about preparing the yeast: I heat the milk/water to 120 and add the yeast.  I figure there are three phases: small bubbles (the yeast is now awake), large bubbles (yeast in full action?), then no more bubbles (but I have never gone to that extent). 

Do I rely on the time mentioned in the recipe or for the visual effect of the yeast? 

 

 

 

proth5's picture
proth5

common for butter to drip out of croissants that have not been laminated correctly and just as importantly have not been proofed sufficiently.

I use a full 1/3 more butter than the formula I use recommends and it does not drip out of my croissants. That is because I laminate carefully and proof thoroughly.

120F seems a little warm to me for dissolving ADY. As I explained, the "proving" step is not required, but if you do it, you will see a few bubbles, then more, then as the available food is exhausted, none. Times in recipes are guidelines, the baker must always decide based on visuals (and other cues, if applicable). Once you see bubbles, the yeast has been proved to be alive. As for me, I would dissolve the yeast and go. Or better yet, use IDY.

An expensive book that presents formulas from bread to pulled sugar for use by professional bakers is overkill for many people, I wish to acknowledge that.

There are good recipes and bad for any product. There are recipes for "croissants" that don't require lamination as I know it, and there are recipe writers who "assume" a lot of things. Let me assure you that if you are doing standard lamination for croissants, you want to  proof them very, very well. Let's do a thought experiment. Expansion in the croissant is occurring from two sources - the CO2 produced by the yeast during its last burst of reproduction and from the expansion of water vapor from the butter. But the croissants are well laminated and the dough layers are very thin, so the CO2 expansion will be very small. But now the water in the butter is turning into steam and wants to expand. If the dough is under proofed, it will still be very elastic. It will not want to extend. The steam is being formed - it has no choice - it must expand and will push the butter out of the small and non expanding space it must share with itself. If the dough has been proofed almost to weakness, it will be more extensible - when the water in the butter becomes steam, it will be able to make space for itself by pushing against the weakened dough. The rest of the butter will stay in place.

I've worked hard on these baking techniques - you may want to reference some of my blogs to see croissants that I have made with unusual grains. I seldom post these days for a number of reasons. I'm willing to spend time to help people who sincerely want to learn, but have developed a certain impatience with people who claim to be beginners and then inform me I am wrong.

Hope this helps.

 

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

OK so a few bubbles indicate that the yeast is active.
Is that enough to add it to the flour at that time?  Is there any suggestion in this that indicates the % of yeast that is active?  IE: More bubbles = more good yeast?  maybe not a real issue...  Someone else here mentioned that the timing at this stage is not all that significant.

The most recent try, I used an instant-read thermometer and watch the temperature go from 120 to 95 and ended up with significant large bubbles.  The one-hour rise time was more successful this time than a previous try with yeast from the same bottle and used a shorter proof time.

At the moment, the pastry dough is in the refrigerator awaiting my next step. I will go though with 3/4 the butter as suggested by the recipe which calls for 7 1/2 c flour.  Thoughts on this move?

 

 

 

proth5's picture
proth5

When using ADY what you are seeking to do is dissolve the yeast. If it is dissolved, it is ready to use.

The bubbles are an indicator that the yeast is still alive and this step is generally no longer required.

You can fret about "big bubbles" and "small bubbles" at this step, but this is not the foundation of success with any croissant formula I have used. Not in the least because most of the formulas I use call for IDY.

I'm not sure of your criteria for "successful" on the one hour rise time. Was the end product better? That is generally my criteria for success.

Without your complete formula in weights (not volumes) and your lamination instructions I have no way to advise you on anything else. My last piece of advice to you is to find a good recipe from someone who knows what they are doing and practice with that. The keys to success in croissant making are: the quality of the lamination butter (which is usually not the kind sold in sticks, but tends to be the higher fat European style butters), the quality of the lamination (even layers of butter and dough without breaks in the butter), proper shaping, good proofing, and good baking. Other elements of success can be found in how the dough is handled in the mix and the kind of fermentation flavors brought into the dough (again, the judicious use of pre ferments). You seem determined to focus on a minor element and so I will let you.

I wish you good luck.

 

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

Being a programmer of some 30 years, code is broken up into sections and tested thoroughly to be sure that works and is understood.  I tend to look at cooking the same way.  In this case, I sought to understand yeast and that was my main drive. It may be that some recipes seem to play up the idea of being extremely careful when using yeast. Several here have shown me that my concerns were relatively unfounded.

So, yes a "focus on a minor element" was exactly what I wanted to do.  Once that part of the code is working, I can now build another part of the program.

With this conversation, I know know much more of what to expect when I use yeast.

"My last piece of advice to you is to find a good recipe from someone who knows what they are doing and practice with that."

Excellent idea, can you recommend one?

 

 

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

You could start with some of the earlier suggestions: Michel Suas' Advanced Bread and Pastry has a croissant recipe designed for making croissants by hand (as opposed to with a dough sheeter).

If you click on Proth5's name, you will go to their page and be able to access their blog entries, which apparently have information and recipes.

You could also look up txfarmer on here, who's done some wonderful work on croissants.

As a side note, I recommend looking up what European/high-fat butters are available near you, since they're not always easy to find. Plugra is a good one and becoming more available, but you may want to ask around at specialty groceries. I know the cheese shop near me carries at least two nice butters, for example.

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

You could start with some of the earlier suggestions: Michel Suas' Advanced Bread and Pastry has a croissant recipe designed for making croissants by hand (as opposed to with a dough sheeter).

If you click on Proth5's name, you will go to their page and be able to access their blog entries, which apparently have information and recipes.

You could also look up txfarmer on here, who's done some wonderful work on croissants.

As a side note, I recommend looking up what European/high-fat butters are available near you, since they're not always easy to find. Plugra is a good one and becoming more available, but you may want to ask around at specialty groceries. I know the cheese shop near me carries at least two nice butters, for example.

proth5's picture
proth5

I have seen code where the individual parts are "perfect" but the end result is not usable. I think of this from time to time.

If AB&P is too much of an investment, you might also try books by Ciril Hitz.

 

drogon's picture
drogon

... proth5 has some excellent stuff on croissants - I learnt the hard way that mine were under proving when finding them deep fried in butter (which is fine as I'm Scottish with the stereotypes of a nation to uphold!)

However, If you have half an hour then watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L36OiPWmOL4 it's funny if nothing else, but his recipe works (for me, at least), but the secret is in the proving. Watch his as he brushes on the egg... They're very soft. He also uses fresh yeast but I use instant dried. (Bioreal yeast)

And if you want beer bread, then use beer instead of water, but I'd really not want a beery croissant - I want a buttery one :-)

Hm. I now fancy croissants for breakfast tomorrow....

-Gordon

(Also a computer programmer for over 30 years)

proth5's picture
proth5

is a total hoot, but there's a lot to learn there.

I have only seen the method that he used for "lock in" used once before, and it was in a French boulangerie. As a bonus question: Do you understand why he left that little knob of dough in the center before topping it with butter?

I've not seen butter used in quite such an unorganized way (and I've seen a lot of bakers laminate a lot of croissants), usually we form a rectangle. This is a satisfying operation of pounding a block of butter into a rectangular frame of parchment paper. But I'll admit, his result is good.

"Dry butter" is the Holy Grail of lamination butter and not commonly available to home bakers in the US. It has even less moisture than Plugra or President - which are all that are available to me. It will make some difference in the end result.

You can also see that the rolling of the paton is quite a muscular operation. This is why the formula in AB&P incorporates a liquid pre ferment. This does add to dough extensibility and makes hand lamination less of a workout. I prefer a liquid levain - which adds a slight sour note.

I've seen a lot of shaping methods, and again, his is not one I particularly like to use, but it works in his hands. I use a method where a gentle stretch is used to elongate the croissant. There are some others I have tried, but this works best in my hands.

Again, apart from the flour throwing and personal remarks about what muscles are developed (which make it so very French), it is a good learning tool (I don't particularly like his formula, but...). The biggest point though is obscured. The baker has quite a set of hand skills which make the whole thing seem easy. It is a simple operation, in the end, but there is a learning curve and practice is required.

Thanks for posting the link to the video...

drogon's picture
drogon

I know that the folks in that video I posted do it a slightly different way for the shop - I'm guessing that's their classic old French way - which makes a a good video. (the town they live/work in is right on the south coast, facing France) For their shop, they use big rectangles of butter and a sheeter - then they have a big roller cutter - like a big rolling pin with the cut-outs for the triangles - there is another set of videos there that shows them doing that process. I guess doing it by hand is great for doing a small batch - when you're selling 100 a day in the shop, it might get somewhat tiring.

I've never really thought much about the "knob" of dough - I thought it was more to do with evening up the thickness of the 4 folds of dough on-top. I normally just start with a flat rectangle...

As for butter quality - the minimum (legal) fat content of butter here (UK) is 80% and most commercial suppliers seem to work to that figure - in one of his other videos he says the butter he uses is 99% fat - I think I buy my butter from the same source, but it might be worthwhile checking. (Ask for a "stick" of butter from a wholesaler and you'll get a block about 5Kg in weight, not what I remember a stick of butter being when I was living in the US :-)

I think your point about the "hand skills" can't be over emphasized too - while I was a competent (in my mind!) bread maker, I went on some courses a few years ago to improve my dough handling/shaping skills. Great fun and very educational. I'm tempted to do a Viennoiserie course just to get more confidence, but I don't have a big outlet for that sort of product here, but you never know!

-Gordon

Emerogork's picture
Emerogork

At least I learned how to throw flour, well at least onto the working surface...
Yes, he did not explain the knob of dough in the center. I wonder about that too.

proth5's picture
proth5

Yes, you see it correctly. When he does the "lock in" he overlaps the edges quite significantly creating a thick spot on top. This is matched by the knob of dough on the bottom, so when the dough is rolled the middle can be rolled evenly.

I watched a baker do this(in person) and learned a thing or two. 

Ingredients differ so much between the US and the UK. Always an interesting topic.

I roll the dough flat also, but do not overlap the edges so much in the lock in.

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

I hadn't seen nor heard of this technique before. Thanks for the explanation!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

of videos on croissant making on YouTube as well. 

GaryS's picture
GaryS

Am I to take from this discussion that after all these years, after reading all these bread recipes, that proofing yeast is not a matter of controlled temperature and takes 10 - 20 minutes?  

The talk here seems to indicate "Get the yeast wet, see if it bubbles, use it without further regiment."

I may not have read enough recipes but there is that off-setting and ubiquitus directive to get the yeast right or die.

Have we been liberated?
Why am I always the last to know....

proth5's picture
proth5

sarcastic?

If so - fine.

If not. Active Dry Yeast (ADY) needs only to be dissolved in water prior to adding it to the mix. The temperature of the water should not be to cold or too hot - back in the day we used "a drop on the wrist should feel neither hot not cold." The water should not be so hot that it kills the yeast, but not so cold as to throw it into dormancy. The reason it needs to be dissolved is that the drying process for active dry yeast is harsh enough that the granules contain the potential live yeast surrounded by dead yeast cells and we want to get the dead yeast cells in solution so that the active ones may make contact with nutrition sources. This dissolving process is why most professional bakers aren't enamored with ADY - having to dissolve it in water takes time and also having to regulate the temperature of the water used to dissolve it plays minor havoc with "desired dough temperature" calculations.

In fact, there are some recipes for ADY that have the yeast mixed in with the flour without dissolving it. When there is sufficient hydration in the dough, the yeast does just fine.

Instant dry yeast does away with this whole piece of bother.

So dissolving ADY in water (as long as you don't kill the stuff) is trivial.

Getting the actual fermentation correct. That is the heart and soul of bread making.

GaryS's picture
GaryS

I am just thinking of all the newbie bread makers that cringe at the (apparent) super precautions in not preparing the yeast properly and how often it turns someone off from even trying.  I am/was one.

Thank you for using acronyms (ADY) only after using the words that define it (Active Dry Yeast).  All too often, I am looking terms up just to understand the explanation.

 

proth5's picture
proth5

I do wonder what kind of "folklore" has been being propagated about yeast. And it seems to just keep coming, but I will not get involved in something like this again.

What is important to me is: do you understand better what is really going on?

For those of you intimidated by the preparation process for Active Dry Yeast  - the simplest cure is to stop using it. Buy Instant Dry Yeast. This is often labeled "Bread Machine Yeast" (not Rapid Rise Yeast - that is something different) at least in the region of the USA where I live. Then you just weigh it out and throw it into your mix along with the flour. You can also buy large packages of Instant Dry Yeast from many internet sources if it is not easily purchased where you live. Pop it in an airtight container in your freezer and it will last way beyond the stated expiration date.

If you must use Active Dry Yeast - dissolve it in warm, but not too hot water (see above)  - let it get bubbly if you want  - and use it. This isn't complicated. Nor is it what truly matters.

Once you get the bread mixed, however, you have entered the world of the bread baker. Fermentation - a minute to learn, a lifetime to master...

GaryS's picture
GaryS

Is the underlined term "fermentation", in your reply, a link?  
It did not link for me.

 

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

I think that the underlined word is just a word underlined for emphasis.