The Fresh Loaf

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100% Sourdough Rye - my second success!

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gmask1's picture
gmask1

100% Sourdough Rye - my second success!

I figured that I'd make myself a blog rather than posting back into the forums all the time. No point cluttering up a perfectly good forum with my one-track-minded baking experiences! 

Last weekend I took another shot at the 100% Sourdough Rye recipe kindly passed on to me by a good work colleague. My previous attempt had been a fair to middling success, and I was confident that this would turn out even better than the first. I was pleasantly surprised by how good the loaves turned out, given my total inexperience in making bread. 

Here's how they turned out: 

 

and the interior:

 

What I'm most happy about is that the resulting loaves - apart from tasting great - have my mind working to figure out ways to improve them. The scoring didn't take, so I'll need to think about different ways to work the scoring out. Plus the surface tension is probably not right, so I'll need to work on my folding.

Lastly - for my own benefit as much as anyone else's - this is the recipe I've been using successfully (all credit to OliverN from my work. I've made a couple of small annotations over time). Any suggestions or variations are absolutely appreciated!

Stage 1:

Mix together

4 x cups rye flour.

3 x cups luke warm water

2 x cups starter.

Leave for 16-24 hrs, until the mix has a domed top.

 

Stage 2

Mix into previous mixture

3 teaspoons sea salt

4 x cups rye flour.

Leave for 12 hours.

 

Split mixture into two bread pans and leave for a couple of hours (I never do that though). For rye flour you do not need to kneed it. I just flatten the mixture and roll into a log.

Bake in 180 preheated oven for an hour. 

Comments

ehanner's picture
ehanner

There is quite a lot going on here it seems. I'm surprised you get such a big rise from the rye flour. All of the high percentage rye recipes I have looked at call for maybe an hour of secondary ferment, not any where near the 12 hours you are doing. But, just look at the crumb! And the proof time again would be just 15 minutes but with added yeast in the final mix.

I guess if I was going to offer a suggestion it would be to try cutting back on the 12 hours secondary ferment time. You could try half and see how the rise is in the oven. It looks like your dough is blowing the top off. I wouldn't worry about trying to slash the top. For 100% rye's the traditional method is to "dock" the top. I use a pencil to make holes in the surface of the top about 1/2 inch deep. This gives a place for the steam to vent and not blow up the top cover.

I'm not an expert with 100% rye's but I have tried enough that I know a few of the problems that can arise. Maybe some of the German style bakers will chime in here.

Look forward to hearing how this works.

Eric 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Excuse me, Eric, but I wish you would not use a pencil, lead could get lost into your dough.  I find a knitting needle or chop stick works well. 

Mini O

josordoni's picture
josordoni

I think a pencil is fine if you use the other non-pointy end Mini?

It's that bit wider than a knitting needle or chopstick.

Lynne

 

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Mini O, although referred to as "lead", the center of a pencil is actually graphite, a form of carbon. 

SteveB

www.breadcetera.com

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Beautiful looking rye loaves. Very impressive -- what a rise!

I'll have to try that. Now that fall is here, I'm eager to start back into rye baking and finally bake the pumpernickel I've long been craving.

siuflower's picture
siuflower

are the breads taste sour with such a long ferment time? 

 

siuflower 

gmask1's picture
gmask1

That's a great question, and I'm not sure that I can answer it... it's funny, everytime I buy sourdough bread locally, I can identify the taste of sourdough (to me, sourdough bread tastes much more complex than the more conventional 'bakery' bread, no offense intended - I love all bread, anyhow and anywhere).

But, I don't know how 'sour' tastes, insofar as bread is concerned! By dictionary definition, sour should be acidic or tangy... the loaves are certainly tangy, moreso than any bread I've ever tasted from a bakery. It's a different tangy though to one of my failed earlier loaves - the tangy taste of the earlier loaf was more identified by the tip of my tongue, and it lingered after finishing the bite that I took. These new loaves are tangy, but more toward the middle and back of my tongue, and the tangy-ness doesn't linger after finishing what I'm eating (the rye flavor does linger though, and this result would be my ideal loaf).

So I apologise, but I hope my observations help to answer your question!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

And they speak a language of their own.  I think something very important to tell us is how cool you let the stages rest.  What was the temperature?  And are you using a rye starter?  I think your temps are worth noting.

The recipe is very logical, it's a three step process.  The first stage (really a second with 2 c of starter being the first) 1c starter flour to 4 cups rye flour or 1:4  and keeping it soft with all the water. The second stage is doubling the flour 5:4 and firming up the dough.  But the dough needs to sour when this much fresh flour is added, rye needs to sour in order to stretch. 

Eric, I think you should check Hamelman's Bread p 203. 

The large time window is due to the process and good starter.  No commercial yeast was added which speeds things up considerably and shortens proofing time.   The timing was right to put into the oven.  If it overproofed, it would be too late.  So the next Q would follow, how did you know when to bake it?

Mini O

gmask1's picture
gmask1

Hi Mini O - thanks for the comments! I'm learning a bit more each day :)

As far as temperature goes, my house is usually between 60-65F (16-19C), though the heater can raise it to about 68F (20C). The dough and starter both rest at that room temperature.

To the starter, and it is a rye starter that was started and is being fed by the same flour as I use to make the bread (I've only been using the one type of flour right the way through, as it was the first that I found in quantities large enough to make bread!)

Lastly, regarding when I put the proofed loaf in the oven - my friend told me to put it straight in once the loaf is shaped into the pan. The recipe suggests a couple of hours proofing time, and I tend to leave the loaves for about 90 minutes.  I'm not aware of any clues that might help me know when to put the loaves in the oven - put it down to beginner's luck!

Thanks again for your comments!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You're welcome. Rye is one of my favorite grains. I can see it is becoming yours too!

Next time score right after you shape your loaf before the 90 minute wait (If and when your room temperature rises, this time may shorten.)

It never hurts to get a feel for the dough by gently touching it often. With time, you can actually x-ray the dough with your finger tips, an acquired skill, that lets you know requardless of temperature how the dough is developing. :)

Mini O

OldDoughNut's picture
OldDoughNut

This is probably a dumb question since bread is typically "done" at an internal temp of 200F, but I've never even considered baking with 100% rye before, so I'll ask...

That 180 degree oven is in Celsius, right? I assumed in your original post the oven temp was 180C, but then you gave your house temps in F (& C). 

I have a bunch of rye so I'd really like to experiment with this recipe and find a way to use it up a little quicker. 

I started converting some of my AP flour starter to rye this morning!  I'm just feeding it rye flour, should this work?

Thanks!

 

gmask1's picture
gmask1

I'm wary of the need to make sure I put everything into both temperature formats, however I just copied the recipe from my friends notes, and forgot to convert that temperature. So yes, the 180 in the original recipe is celcius (356F) - thanks kindly for reminding me!

Regarding your other question about feeding rye flour to an AP Flour starter - I'm not 100% certain, but I'm confident that it would work. Due to the situation at home, I am trying very hard to only use rye flour for everything, so the starter is rye flour through and through, and the loaves only use rye flour. I do remember reading about innoculating starters with different types of flour - ap flour into a rye flour starter and so on, but I'm just not experienced enough to know for sure.

OldDoughNut's picture
OldDoughNut

Unfortunately, I had to leave for work as soon as I pulled the loaves out of the oven, but they looked (& smelled) good!  They (nearly) doubled in size in the oven, which is good since they didn't rise at all on the counter in 2 hours (again, I was contrained for time or I would have let them go a little longer).  I'm expecting they're still going to be pretty dense, but I'm looking forward to finding out! 

I saw your new blog post where you tried docking, so I wanted to let you know I tried MiniO's suggestion of scoring immediately after shaping - I made a deep(!) cut down the length of the loaf, and that seemed to work pretty well, along with misting the loaf with a spray bottle.  I had a few extra cracks form on the crust, but for the most part it pushed up through the score line.  (As it sat for 2 hours, it appeared to be resealing the score mark, but when heat was applied, that's where it split!)

I can't wait to try some... Thanks for your posts on 100% rye.

 K

gmask1's picture
gmask1

I did the docking right after shaping, but I don't think the holes were wide enough, and I'm almost certain they would have closed up some. This dough is pretty soft right through the process, and fills into any cracks it finds! I use baking paper to line the bottom of my bread pans (that would explain the weird looking sides of the loaves), and the dough works it's way around any gaps between the baking paper and the side of the pan. I'll give your method a try on my next loaves, going with deeps cuts along the top of the loaf.

Thanks so much for your comments - I found such a small amount of information on 100% rye bread baking while starting out over the last few weeks. Now here I am trying to contribute to it!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I find your timing and recipe is working just fine, please don't go changing much.   It works.  I think a lot of rye enthusiasts are following your thread, you are a super contributor!  Now don't get nervous. (hee hee hee)  This is fun.  Oh, and I'm not an authority on rye, I just like to play with it.  :)   

You seem to want to beautify the loaf. So maybe one place to start would be to line the pan with something decorative, like crumbs or seeds to make the wrinkles vanish.  (Would that work on my wrinkled ol' skin?)  They have to stick to the sides and bottom so a light coating of butter might just do the trick.  Then put in a few tablespoons of unroasted seeds, grated nuts or flour and shake it around until all the sides are coated.  You can also follow the slash with a few sprinkled on seeds or grated nuts to help keep it from bonding back together.   

When looking at the top of the loaf.... another thought comes to mind.... try making a tent of aluminum foil:

Shape it over the bottom of the loaf pan.  Just set your loaf pan in the middle of a sheet that will extend up the sides about 8 cm  and pull the aluminum foil up the sides with the wrinkles  in the corners, then remove the pan and tent the foil shape over the loaf and fix loosely in a way to give several inches of head space for the dough to rise inside and trap in most of the steam.  Try to fix onto outside lip of loaf pan leaving sides exposed to full heat.  Leave it in place for the first 15-20 minutes of baking.  (save and re-use it)

Remove tent (careful to avoid the steam) to let the top brown, the trapped in steam will help the top crust stretch in those first 15-20 minutes.  This tent method is also a very good when the top of the oven tends to be too hot (setting the top too soon) and more heat is needed on the pan parts of the loaf to brown the bottom and sides. 

I am not so sure you need to dock your shaped loaf if you score it.  Docking works better with a dough coming out of a banneton.  I dip and clean my knife, knitting needle (whatever) in a glass of water between each poke if it needs it.  Spraying a light coat of water or dusting the surface first (depending on whether you prefer to handle the dough with water or flour) does help.  Docking is done to poke any large bubbles formed inside or under the surface.  If you decide to do it, poke almost to the bottom of the loaf.  (Extreme example of docking would be to get an elephant to step on your shaped loaf.)  Chances are good the marks with show after the bake so think about what pattern you make as you poke. (...and if your elephant leaves toe nail marks.)

That's all I can think of now,  I'm going to go study loaf #6.  I hope some of this is useful.

Mini O 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

This looks like basically a 1-2-3 sourdough formula!


Found myself looking closely at this recipe  (converted it to grams) noting it's success and see that it is also a 1-2-3 type recipe by weight.    The flour in the recipe has been divided into two mixing and rising times, salt added to the second mix/rise and the rye has been reduced just a little because of the tremendous absorbent qualities of the flour. 


I added spices to the starter (made from firm refrigerated starter last night--it started out too runny--realized I didn't have enough flour for a larger loaf--so I added some rolled oats to soak up excess moisture) and this morning I'm in the first "rise."  It stands waiting to "dome."  I will mix in the salt and rest of the flour when it's ready.    I used 200g thick liquid rye starter (not counting the oats), 400g water 300g Rye flour.  Later I will add 250g rye flour and about 50-100 g of soaked & drained Quinoa seeds.


My patio is between 15°c and 17°c  so it is perfect for this rye loaf and now with all this nice cool weather for rye, I head for the tropics, really smart!  I hear there is a bakery nearby....


Mini

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and ended up adding more water.   Dough stood another hour and not much was going on.  I scooped it out onto parchment and smoothed the top with a spatula and dusted it lightly with flour so I could see it rise.  It just lay there, a whole hour long,  like thick cooked scored oatmeal, grey, bumpy, with no visible signs of life.  So I decided to mix up a cake and bake that in my already hot oven.


After another 50 minutes I gently touched the top of the rye dough,  it felt like there were hollow spaces forming inside.  Yes!  I was worried there for several hours but I was rushing it a bit.  (patience) The dough was smelling sour now but not too mature and when the oven had reached 200°c  I slid it into my hot iron pan to bake 50 minutes at 180°.  It doubled in height.  (smile)


Mini