I went through a long, bad period with my home ground and did eventually find out that I had gotten a bad batch of wheat. Double check your wheat and your technique (i.e. try the same formula with a good quality commercially ground whole wheat) before getting too frantic.  This approach was useful to me, but if you have been using the recipes for years with 100% whole wheat flour, you might want to skip this.

I also had some unsatisfactory results during early milling, but not collapsing in the middle.  But I've been doing a lot of work with the home milled and here are some factors with which I have worked:

1. Starch damage - As grain is ground the starch is damaged.  Some types of mills (and micronizer mills like yours have this reputation) and some milling processes result in excessive starch damage.  This means that the flour will absorb extra water in the mixing process, but release it during proofing to become overly slack and collapse.  Since I have a steel buhr mill I can adjust the agressiveness of my milling to reduce starch damage.  I noticed a significant change in my bread (for the better) with the less aggressive milling.  I am not sure exactly what you could do with your mill to change this (although others use the WonderMill with success.) Off the top of my head given a collapse and your mill - this is what I would suspect as this as the source of your troubles.  Starch damage can be measured by laboratory testing, but there are few of us here (and, yes, I am one of them) that will go to this length.

2. Over proofing - you may wish to change your proofing times as you adjust to the unique qualities of your own flour.  You may need to proof for less time so the structure of the bread is sturdier going into the oven. You might also wish to check your baking time to make sure that your loaves are really baked.

3. Aging the flour - Newly milled flour is usually aged to provide optimal gluten development.  My own experience (backed up by certain researchers) is that it takes 2 months to really see results from this, but others advocate shorter periods.  I did see improvement in the texture of my bread after aging for 2 months, but not enough to offset the loss in taste.  Some folks feel that 2 weeks of aging will suffice.  My data disagrees, but it was only one test. Some people advocate using ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in very small quanties as an oxidizing agent to artificially age the flour and increase gluten strength.

4. Malting the flour - using very small amounts of diastatic malt.  This will increase the enzyme action in the flour and will aid in getting a good rise.  Frankly, this didn't do much for my bread, but wheat can vary quite a bit.  Are you getting a good rise before the bread is baked?

5. Grind size - this is a long shot because of the type of mill you have, but are you grinding your flour as fine as commercial flour?  You might want to consider sifting out any large particles.

I have not really altered my formulas from commercial whole wheat to home ground, but I have made careful consideration of the above factors.

Congratulations - you are entering an exciting period of discovery as you learn to mill your own wheat.  I started out with the vague notion of doing home grinding and well, may have taken it all a bit too far.  But there is a certain satisfaction when you get it right and can say "I milled the grain myself" and milling opens up a world of possibilities for grain applications.

I think my primary partner in milling excess, bwraith, has some great information in his blogs.  There are also others who have been milling longer than I on these pages and I am sure they will chime in. 

Hope this is helpful.

This is very helpful - thank you!

I do hope the problem isn't with the mill and starch damage, as that way I'm stymied before I start.  It is certainly true that the dough seemed very slack and the rise was flabby.  I wonder whether starting with a sour would give at least some of the flour a chance to adjust to the water.

Problems with the proofing are hard to pinpoint up to now, as I used the only yeast I had around, which is the quick-rise.  I've just picked up some more of the standard yeast, so we'll see if that has better staying power.

Seems a pity to age the flour if much of the nutrient value is lost in the first 24 hours.  I'd rather find other ways around it.

I haven't tried malting the flour, and that might be interesting in any case.  Although on principle I'd like to get things to the point where they work without too many sophisticated additions.  Then the additions are by choice rather than necessity...

Grind size is a disappointment with this mill - ostensibly it offers 3 sizes from very fine pastry flour to quite coarse.  In fact, it's hard to tell the difference between the grinds.  I will need a decent sifter if I'm going to have to separate the bran (and no doubt I'll want to do that sometimes) but I have yet to look for one.  You don't think, when you start something like this, about how much the equipment list is going to grow....

well, thank you again, and I shall appreciate any other comments you or anyone else may be able to make.  And shall enjoy poking around the many threads and blogs on the subject.

Veronica,"You don't think when you start something like this, about how much the equipment list is going to grow...." 

I agree with you.  When I started baking bread at home about 10 years ago, who knew it would lead to so many bowls, pans, stones, mixers, slashing devices, bread books, flours, etc.  I want to expand into home milling but Mrs. Drifty has so far been able to discourage this expansion of my hobby, or she describes it, "my obsession".  

You will enjoy this forum.  There are a lot of very helpful people here that offer very good advice.  Welcome!

Drifty Baker

Go biking while its rising!

Veronica, this is discouraging, as this was the type of mill I was planning to buy in the future (how far into the future I'm not sure). I'm wondering if some people who have had wonderful success with the Wondermill could write in. I own a Kitchen-Aid mixer, and a Champion juicer. For the mill attachment for the Champion, I believe the yield is only one cup flour/5 minutes, which seems very slow to me. Also, I didn't realize that there would be a learning curve for how to adjust to baking with home milled flour. I was also thinking that if I got the Wondermill I could make chickpea flour, etc., things that one can't necessarily do with some of the attachments.

Beth

Thank you so much for all this input. And especially thanks to Pat for your extra research here! I am going to try to get some of my grain milled by a friend with a hand grinder (not likely to go at a speed that will damage the starch!) and bake that - that should settle whether it is the grain or the mill, I hope.

If it is the mill, I guess I can try what you suggest, Pat, and add some lemon juice or whatever to the recipes and see if that offsets the damage enough. I haven't the space right now to go in for more demanding recipes with levains or sourdough base - we are in the middle of (finally) finishing the kitchen, so everything that would normally be in the cabinets being worked on, is out on the counters. Marginally controlled chaos. And I need to keep a reliable march of bread coming, for the B&B.

Beth - I wish I had found this forum before I bought my mill. I might have done more investigating - as it was, I had read only good things about it. But let's wait and see - maybe the problem is elsewhere. Or maybe I have a defective mill - I'm still doubtful about how little difference there is between the finest and coarsest grinds, wondering if there's something wrong here.

Drifty - thanks so much for the welcome. I look forward to furthering my acquaintance with the folks here, and learning more! Comparing experience is so useful, isn't it?

Thanks again, all!

- Veronica

Impact (micronizer) mills are in very common use among home millers so I don't think it's the mill that is causing the collapse problem. I use an original Grainmaster Whisper Mill myself, bake at least four loaves every week, and have never had a loaf collapse.

It sounds to me like the dough is overproofing. A little less rise time before going into the oven may cure that.

Most of my baking is used quite fresh, often straight out of the mill. What isn't used on the spot is kept in the fridge and used within two weeks.

I have found that a little acid in the dough does help so I nearly always squeeze a couple of Key limes into the dough (I have lime trees) or use a teaspoon of cider vinegar per loaf. The yeast and the dough both seem to like it.

I've also found the sponge method helps a lot too. In fact it seems to be one of the best things I've discovered yet for improving my bread.

.....Alan.

The Prudent Food Storage FAQ

http://athagan.members.atlantic.net/Index.html

Thanks for the interesting discussion. 

I've been milling over a year now (baking bread for ~6 years, exclusively whole grains for about 3 years).  My loaves collapse frequently.  I've always attributed it to over-proofing; I've not considered "starch damage" before. 

This last weekend's flop was definitely over-proofed - I knew it was, but it was sourdough & I wouldn't be able to eat it if I knocked it down and allowed it one more rise (timid sour tolerance).  I typically do long, cool ferments (over 24 hrs) and I thought I'd read that coarser flour holds up better in those circumstances than fine flour.  Wouldn't the coarse flour setting also reduce the chances of starch damage from the micronizer?

Also, I bake in 9x5 pans because that's what I've got.  I've been wanting to find some 8x4 pans to see if they would offer more support & less collapse.  I think fresh-milled collapses more easily than commercial.  I definitely don't remember having this problem with white bread!

I would first suspect overproofing, second insufficient bulk fermentation time to allow the whole wheat flour to fully absorb liquid and third insufficient kneading (in that order of importance). (I'm just reinforcing observations made by others.)

It would help if you could give more detail about your recipe, ingredients and procedure...

> is the flour 100% home milled whole wheat or does it use some white bread flour?

> does the recipie also use flours (or other ingredients) low in gluten forming ability (such as a multi-grain loaf or rye or spelt etc.)?

> what is the wheat that you're using for milling? - hard *winter* or hard *spring* wheat? 

> are you using any techniques such as overnight, refrigerator bulk fermentation or autolyse or soakers? All of these help whole grain flour absorb liquids.

These are only a few questions that come to mind. The more detail you can give, the more likely you'll get targeted answers. 

Since you're using a WonderMill, your whole wheat flour should be pretty fine (that's good - a coarse flour can contribute to collapse during rising or baking). I sincerely doubt that starch damage from the mill is significantly contributing to your problem. 

I use a Nutrimill which I think would make flour similar to your Wonder Mill.

I usually have good results. Here are some things that might help.

I order my wheat berries from Wheat Montana. I use a mix of Prarie Gold and Bronze Chief to get the flavor I like. Either one by itself would be fine as well.

I follow the procedures in Peter Reinharts whole grain breads which involves soaking the dough overnight. I also use buttermilk for soaking the flour. 

I use Bigas or Sourdough. I find Sourdough starter gives me the best dough quality. 

Don't overproof the dough, this is a mistake I have made many times thinking the taller the loaf is going into the oven, the taller it will be coming out. This is not true when it falls or collapses. I am starting to use the finger poke method. When the dough springs back slowly then it is ready. If it does not spring back it is too late. 

 Good luck and keep at it.

Based on limited experience, the moisture level of home-milled flour seems more variable than commercial flour.  One would have to know what one's final dough should feel like.

cb

...and encouraging words - thanks to all.  I'm very glad to hear from others using micronizer type mills, that they have worked through their glitches. 

 I will have another go at all this on Friday, when I'm home again, and will report results...

-v