Thanks for your post. I do hope that members of TFL will post to this thread so that we can, collectively, explore the differences in wheat grains that are *home milled* into flour.

At this time, I'm not going to respond to the questions you labeled as A B or C. Each one deseves a well thought out response from me (and other readers). I promise to do so in the future.

I would like to respond to other issues you raised in your post...

You're 100% correct. I found the *taste* difference between home-milled hard *red* wheat and hard *white* wheat to be signficantly different. Hard white wheat (available in spring and winter plantings) clearly has a more neutral taste.

My test recipe uses 50% commercially milled unbleached white bread flour, which is milled from the endosperm of the grain. The endosperm (generally milled from hard *red* wheat) is largely neutral in taste and the recipe uses well known techniques such as the inclusion of a prefrement - in this case a biga - and an overnight refrigerater rise to develop flavor.

If I had used a recipe that was 100% whole grain (home milled) hard *red* wheat vs. 100% whole grain (home milled) hard *white* wheat I believe the flavor difference would have been even more pronounced. A bread made from 100% whole grain wheat flour would also, at a minium, require adjustments in the hydration (water content) of the loaf.

Absolutely agree. There are certainly excellent commercial sources for whole grain flour in the USA (King Arthur; Bobs Red Mill) *however* we lowly home bakers have no idea how much time has elapsed between the packaging of the flour at the mill and the point in time when we pay for our bag of flour at the supermarket. Freshness of whole grain flour is paramount for flavor (and other properties) and I do believe that those who wish to bake with whole grain flour are best served by milling whole grain at home.

My thoughts on "c" are in my reply to Rosalie. On to "a" and "b"

A - no difference in milling between winter and spring

I'm using a Nutrimill grain mill. The benefit (and limitation) of these micronizer mills is that they produce a finely milled flour. Both grains were milled on high speed on the finest setting (the lower dial pointing to the "N" in "Finer"). Winter wheat is slightly softer than spring, which you can test yourself by chewing a few grains of each. But once they've gone through the micronizer mill, the flour fineness is very similar.

If you're not using a micronizer mill, then differences in milling properties would be more apparent. The best way for a home baker to learn about the different milling properties is to use a manual grain mill; most manual grain mills use a fixed groved plate and an adjustable groved plate to crush the grain (not that different in principle from the wind and water powered grain mills people used up through the 1800s). However, a quality manual mill is expensive and I think most prefer an electric micronizer mill for it's convenience and the fine flour it can produce with no effort and in very little time. Cheaper manual mills may not be good at producing fine flour; grain milling attachments (to the Bosch or KitchenAid) have the same limitation.

B - no difference in water absorption between winter and spring

For testing purposes, I resisted the temptation to make fine adjustments in the amount of liquid during the kneading process (FYI, I measure by weight, not volume). I was a little surprised that there was no appreciable difference in the rise. Do remember, however, that the recipe uses 50% white bread flour also.

I emphasize again the fineness of my whole wheat flour. The bran particles are very fine so they absorb water more readily than a coarser milled wheat flour. The recipe also employs a two hour autolyse for the whole wheat flour and water before the other ingredients are added so both whole wheat flours (hard red winter and hard spring white) have plenty of time to hydrate.

B - higher level of damaged starch in spring wheat

I honestly don't know if winter wheat has, on average, less damaged starch than spring wheat.

Damaged starch is primarily caused by rain shortly before the grain is ready to harvest. The seed may start to sprout, which increases the amount of alpha-amylase and other enzymes that break down starch. Starch damage in wheat is measured by a test called the "falling number" - values of 300 or higher indicate low enzyme activity and wheat that meets this criterion is preferred for bread flour. Wheat with a falling value of 250 or below may be rejected for milling into flour for baked goods. However, alpha-amylase is not all bad; a small amount is added to many commerical brands of white flour (bread or all purpose) by the addition of malted barley flour because it improves the extensibility of bread dough (the ability of the gluten web to expand to trap the carbon dixode given off by yeast and to stretch during the initial bake at high tempertures - aka oven spring).

A large commercial mill blends flour from different wheats to achieve different grades of flour that meet different specifications. Some well established large scale bakers are known to work with selected mills to get precisely the type of flour they require. When it comes to the home baker, the best most of us can do is read the technical specifications for different flour brands or, if buying grain, purchase it from a reliable and well known source. If you know where your wheat was grown and what year it was harvested you can always check out the weather in that region. The sites of university and college agricultural extension services are a good source for information in different geographical areas, especially the states that produce most of our wheat.

You may also be thinking of Mike Avery's discussion of grain mills for the home user in this TFL thread kernals or berries? when he says

I’m also interested in why experts think artisan flour can’t be spring wheat.

Artisan flour can be spring wheat but it would appear that a flour with a protein content of around 12% is preferred by professional artisan bakers to flours with protein content above this number. Hard winter wheat falls in this category.

Speciality wheat flours (aka artisan flours) often have a higher mineral content because more of the endosperm that lies close to the bran coating is incorporated into the flour. It may include the aleurone layer, which is technically part of the endosperm but, in commerical milling, tends to remain attached to the inner layer of the bran. These outer layers are higher in mineral content than the central part of the endosperm.

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End of discourse. Hope you found some of the information helpful. - SF

I am totally confused by your question.

My test recipe is 50% whole grain flour (milled from wheat grain with a Nutrimill grain mill which, by defintiion, makes it 100% whole wheat) and 50% commercially milled unbleached white bread flour (which is milled from the endosperm of the wheat and, depending on source, will have varying percentages of protein and mineral content).

I have *not* done an all-white loaf comparison.

If you can better focus your question, I would be happy to answer it.

I did indeed vary two characteristics, and you're right, the better comparison would have been to have hard spring wheat for both the red and white varieties. I do believe there is a winter planting for white wheat (I will check my references and see if I can confirm this). There is soft white wheat (I ordered some from Wheat Montana but haven't used it yet).

If I remember correctly, I believe you also home mill and prefer hard spring wheat to hard winter wheat.

If the baker wants to make loaves that contain a large amount of other, non-gluten containing ingredients (multi-grain loaves come to mind) and wants a 100% whole grain loaf (or one with only a small amount of white flour) I think hard spring wheat would be the better choice since it's slightly higher protein content could off-set the lower gluten content of the other ingredients. If the baker just wants a 100% whole wheat loaf, then hard winter wheat might do as well as hard spring wheat.

The test has to be taken in context. It does use 50% white flour, which can mask the differences between hard spring vs hard winter wheat. For testing, I wanted to use a recipe that I'd made many times before, so the results wouldn't be thrown off by attempting something new. FYI, I don't make 100% whole grain bread (I've gone up to 70% whole wheat, 30% white unbleached bread flour but I always use some white).

The biggest difference in the test was the taste of white wheat vs red wheat. I don't think that would change. If the baker wants the nutritional qualities of whole wheat flour but dislikes the taste of red, then white wheat is an excellent alternative. (BTW, I have used the hard white spring wheat for egg pasta, where it performed very well.)

Do you have preferences between hard winter vs hard spring wheat? Please share your experience.

hi Rosalie,

I found the reference. There is indeed a hard white winter wheat, at least in Kansas. Check out this article published by the Kansas State University Agricultural Experiment Station HARD WHITE WINTER WHEAT FOR KANSAS

I've no idea how widely it is grown. Even if farmers are growing it, it may be hard to find and I'm not convinced it would be worth the trouble for the home baker.

Its interesting (possibly) to note that the US government does not distinguish between winter and spring hard white wheat in it's Wheat Classification System (though it does distinguish between soft and hard white wheat). See Major Wheat Classifications - USA reference