The Fresh Loaf

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Help with Borodinsky Rye with Bay State Wingold Dark Rye Flour

GFBP's picture
GFBP

Help with Borodinsky Rye with Bay State Wingold Dark Rye Flour

Hello All-

I've made Borodinsky Rye with Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye a couple of time successfully.   I recently got my hands on some of this Bay State Wingold Dark Rye from NY Bakers.

 

Protein 36%

Ash 11.6%

 

Firstly, Ive NEVER seen protein content this high.  I don't know what to make of it.   Needless to say the preferment is like modeling clay.    The finished product is like a cake.  Soooo dense.    It's its own thing, perhaps.

My question is two-fold.   1. Is this type of flour (with its high protein content) supposed to be mixed with a light rye?   2.  Does the protein content of 36% make sense?    How does one bake with this?   

I'm making the recipe again, using ALL Bay State flour but I'm adding more water and will let the thing preferment for perhaps 2 days....and then bulk for 4-5 hours.    

Here's the originial recipe:

 

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/homes-gardens/20171001/284013307245798

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

(I'm going to write this as if speaking to new bakers, and not just replying to your question.) 

There are two definitions of "dark rye". 

1. some people mean just "whole rye", or whole meal rye.  Nothing removed.  This is the definition that BRM uses, and they specifically say "whole grain" here:  https://www.bobsredmill.com/organic-dark-rye-flour.html

The BRM ad copy says: "Organic Dark Rye Flour is a flavorful, 100% whole grain flour complete with all the nutritious bran and germ. It is freshly ground on our quartz-stone mills from organic dark, plump rye berries."

So... to Bob, "dark" is a _color_.

2. NY Bakers and Bay State say/mean:  "The darkest and heaviest rye flour, consisting of whole-grain rye flour after the white rye flour has been sifted out. "

from: https://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=28

To them, "dark" means "less (or little) endosperm."

This (#2) is also the definition here: http://www.theartisan.net/Flours_One.htm

"Dark rye" by definition #2 is not "whole grain" because it has some/most endosperm _removed_.

--

Although definition #1 is somewhat common, definition #2 is more common and more correct.

--

"white rye" is the endosperm, the "white (refined)" flour after bran and germ have been removed.  So, if you subtract out any of the  endosperm, the bran and germ that's left make up a _higher proportion_ of the flour than even whole rye.  Very dense, and bran-y.  Lots of protein and oil from the germ, and Lots of fiber/ash from the bran, will boost the protein % and ash % higher than even whole grain rye.

--

"Rye meal" does have a more consistent meaning: 100% whole grain.  But, it can come in different "grinds": fine, medium, coarse.  

These are the Bay State rye flours at www.nybakers.com

https://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=bay+state+rye&x=0&y=0

The Bay State product equivalent to the BRM's "dark rye" (which is actually "whole grain")  would have been one of Bay State's rye _meals_, likely the fine grind.

--

I checked the recipe at the link you gave, and I did not see it call for "dark rye".  It only called for "whole rye" in the starter, then just "rye flour" for the rest, leaving it unspoken whether they meant light/white, medium, or whole. 

Had you used "Rye meal" (ie, whole grain rye) instead of what NYbakers and Bay State call "dark rye", it would have had less bran and germ and been softer and less dense.

Did this make any sense?

GFBP's picture
GFBP

Hi there.  Something else pulled me away from baking this week and I forgot I had posted this.   Your thoughtful explanation makes perfect sense.  Thank you so much for posting.  I think it will help anyone who is looking for detailed information on the subject of Dark Rye when it comes to product names.

I'm a little confused about something however.  You said the Bay State has removed all of the endosperm and that this is more in line with information found on The Artisan.net .   I searched the page that you linked, and in the chart it defines dark rye as "(100% extraction) Limited to 20% flour blend before significant volume reduction occurs in the product.". 

Doesn't 100% extraction mean that nothing has been removed?   

Does the rye endosperm have more gluten in it?   What exactly is the 'stuff' that makes flour which has more (like Bob's) more cake-like and airy?

Do you think it's a good choice for feeding starters?

Thanks!

GFBP's picture
GFBP

comment deleted

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Looks like I mis-remembered what was on TheArtisan.net.   So, they are in line with Bob's Red Mill's definition.

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The germ of grain has lots of protein, but it is not gluten-making protein.  All gluten-making protein is in the endosperm. Rye makes little gluten anyway (less than hard wheat) so it suffers  even more if some of the endosperm is removed.

--

Rye bran has even more enzymes than wheat bran. So feeding rye bran to a starter will boost sugar production, and thereby boost fermentation.  Other than that, I can't say, since I have not used rye to feed starter.

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

User "breadforfun" gave this link http://theryebaker.com/rye-flour/

on a recent comment: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/464529#comment-464529

It's an article by rye expert Stan Ginsberg, and explains some of the confusion with the names of rye flour and rye meal.