Does Whole Wheat Need Long Fermentation
I've been working on high whole wheat %/high hydration artisan bread from two different directions:
- No-Knead
- Overnight poolish then conventional mix, gluten development, 1-2 hr bulk fermentation, pre-shape, shape, proof, bake
With the conventional approach, sometimes I knead with the stand mixer/dough hook, sometimes stretch and folds, sometimes Rubaud method (see the Trevor Wilson video; https://youtu.be/zgz0oAhgwyg). I bake the boules in a dutch oven; sometimes I try bâtards on a stone with pans for steam. But it's always all the 2nd day vs 3rd for no-knead, and thatś 3 full days of bulk fermentation).
Generally the no-knead gets better oven spring and a more open crumb. Since the shaping, proofing, and baking is the same (no-knead & conventional), could it be that whole wheat (75%+) and/or high hydration (80%+) just need a longer bulk fermentation? In that video, TJW bulk ferments an 85% hydration dough at room temp for 6 hrs with 8 folds along the way.
Here are the formulas I use: Bread Formulas. Compare the one for KAF No-Knead Crusty Whole Wheat with the Whole Wheat Dough with Poolish 75/85. Does the conventional formula need a long fermentation?
Thanks
In general, my answer to your question "Does WW need more bulk fermentation time?" is as follows. WW needs time to fully hydrate every little branny bit to get the best possible loaf and crumb. Usually it is some form of autolyse. I have found that WW tends to degrade with long fermentation but does well with long autolyses. Enzyme activity?I don't know. I already recognize by looking at your formulas that you are way above my knowledge level. Great formulas!
OTOH, I don't try for loaves with a largely open crumb so your experience may differ, in that respect. I strive for soft,flexible,tasty, a slightly-more-open-sandwich-crumb-that-never-crumbles type of crumb structure.
Thanks. I recently took the KAF Whole Grain Artisan Baking class. For reasons I wish I remembered, they don't autolyse. Instead they mix just to incorporation, and then rest 30 minutes covered before starting to develop gluten (in the mixer, kneading, S & F, whatever).
Louis, I have recently been on a baking spree of Approachable Loaves since it is featured on our Community Bake.
Like Clazar, open crumb is not on my radar, especially for this type of dough. I have noticed that the length of fermentation seems to make a huge difference in the flavor of these breads. Too quick, according to my taste buds, the bread is bland and uneventful. A 5-6 hour bulk ferment (74-77F) with a 0.3% yeast kicker has served me best thus far. Keep in mind that most bakes utilize retardation, but mainly for timing and not so much for flavor.
That last statement I wrote made me think about something. The one bake that I didn’t retard over ight was bland tasting and uneventful. Maybe the retard did have something to do with the flavor. Although the BF and final proof ran too fast.
If this sort of bake interest you, see THIS POST.
Danny
Thanks. I have been told that warm temps (preferement, BF on the counter) develop different flavors than a retarded fermentation in the fridge. Either way, it sounds as if high WW or high hydration (or both) need a long fermentation - 5-6 hours or overnight.
My absolute best tasting and textured sandwich loaves involved a natural levain poolish, proper mix/knead to windowpane, sit in bowl for about 30-60 minutes to rest and then into the refrigerator overnight. When I take it out in the morning, it is either completely doubled or almost doubled. Shape, proof (an hour or so), and bake. Tasted like fine wine and very nice soft texture- even at 100% WW.
I do not do dough temps but warm water is used and the mix can warm it up a bit so it goes into the refrigerator at a slightly warm temp. I also do not like to use bread flour when I make a hybrid ww/white flour loaf as it imparts too chewy a texture for my taste. WW flour (hard,red spring wheat) has plenty of gluten to make a nice crumb.
Thanks. There is an emerging consensus that WW/high hydration needs a good long BF - 5-6 hrs on the counter or overnight in the fridge.
I bake with ~90% home-milled whole wheat, ground coarsely.
I find that I need about a 2 hour soak/autolyse, no salt, no starter/levain, so that after starter and salt are added, the wet mass turns into "dough" suitable for the stretch-and-folds during bulk ferment. It's usually 30-60 minutes after levain is added that it turns to "dough" for me". So that means a total 2.5 to 3 hours from the time the flour is first wetted.
In my experience with fresh-milled, a same-day bake doesn't taste as good as when either the bulk ferment or the proof goes over-night. Well, if I start at 6 am, and bake at 8pm, I can get a decent taste bread in one day. But waiting another 20-24 hours from baking to cutting open leads to even better taste.
The percent of pre-fermented flour (ie, percent starter/levain) is tied very closely, in inverse proportion, to bulk ferment and proof time. And proof time can also be inversely proportional to bulk ferment time -- bulk ferment to a certain point, and you have to reduce proof time.
My experience is that fermentation, both bulk fermentation and final proof continue on, albeit slower, in the fridge -- it doesn't totally stop in the fridge.
So all these things have to be put imto balance as they are closely linked. Fer instance, I'm down to 3.5% prefermented flour (or 7% starter at 100% hydration), for an overnight (12 hr) bulk ferment. That's how quickly home-milled 90% whole wheat ferments, it just really takes off.
Dave, “ I'm down to 3.5% prefermented flour (or 7% starter at 100% hydration), for an overnight (12 hr) bulk ferment.”
What is the temp of your overnight ferment?
I am starting to wonder if even a young levain vs a more mature levain makes a difference in the BF of WW.
in a slightly preheated oven, so about 75F falling to 65 F within a couple hours.
And that's usually with cold starter that's been in the fridge, last fed 24-48 hours previously.
Thanks. I use commercial yeast in order to make my life simpler. I typically make a poolish with 1/3 of the flour. But even with that, maybe with a high WW/hydration the BF needs 5-6 hours on the countertop or overnight in the fridge. Proofing times are almost always shorter than what the book says.
Whether sourdough(wild yeast) or commercial yeast, the principles of amount of yeast versus time still come in to play. That's the main thing I wanted to get across. (I tend to write for future readers, not just the original poster.)
Using a lower percentage of poolish, or less yeast in your poolish (making it a weaker poolish) would have the same effect as me using a lower percentage of starter.
This also illustrates a consistency thing: 1 teaspoon of dry yeast (before its expiration) is a known quantity. But my starter has at least 6 variables: what I fed it, what ratio I fed it, time since last feeding it, temp since that last feeding, time since the feeding before that, and that temp too. Unless I keep those things constant, my starter is not a "known quantity" and therefore does not give exactly reproducible/consistent results.
If I use an extra step, I could build a "levain" from the starter, where the levain, like a poolish, is intended for a specific loaf or bake, but then I'd still have 4 things to hold constant: what to feed, ratio, time, temp.
If it weren't for the sourdough flavor, I'd go back to plain commercial yeast just for the simplicity. And buying the SAF yeast by the pound makes it really cheap. You can still get that "long-ferment flavor" by fermenting overnight, with something like 1/4 tsp per loaf (500 g flour), but it's the sourdough "tang" that I like too.
Update: this conversation has inspired me to do a commercial yeast loaf, 1/8 tsp instant dry yeast, 90% WW, over night room temp bulk ferment -- I'll proof in a banneton and bake tomorrow AM. Using Hard white spring wheat, hard red winter, and Kamut/Khorasan. Maybe up to 10% Kroger AP flour, depending on how I need to adjust hydration.
Dave, you may an important distinction between a CY poolish and a SD starter. Many of us are scientific by nature and things like baker’s percentages are appealing to us, but SD also demands a little artistry. The baker that excels with sourdough bread must wear 2 hats...
The tang of SD is one of many aspects that affect the flavor. Since I don’t know everything that takes place in respect to flavor from sourdough, I just call it complex. Vinegar and commercial yeast will never produce the “complex” flavors that are derived from SD.
ain’t it sum wonderful stuff