The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

From CedarMountain's fermented oat soaker to Wally's 72% rye with seed soaker and lots of stops inbetween

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

From CedarMountain's fermented oat soaker to Wally's 72% rye with seed soaker and lots of stops inbetween

Starting with CedarMountain

Unfortunately, I don't seem to have made any notes of the fermented soaker bake. Pretty sure that I used my basic 70% hydration, white (with 10% whole wheat) loaf, 25% rye starter at 100% hydration. Probably about 150g of oat soaker at a 1:2 ratio, with a handful of seeds for good measure. Also sifted out 12g of bran from the whole wheat and added that with 9g of water to the soaker.

I do have a vivid recollection of many, many SLAFs (CedarMountain, you could've warned me!), trying to get the dough to come together. It finally did, just enough to liberate my hands, so I stuck the dough in the fridge overnight, hoping to firm it up a little. It did, sort of. But was still a very slack and tacky dough. Pre-shaped as best I could, bench rested, shaped, coated with flax and nigella seeds and plopped into their baskets.

They rose pretty well, albeit without ears. Crumb was soft (and stayed that way), crust was thin and crunchy, taste was mild and "wholesome" without feeling like it's supposed to be good for you. Obviously still need to work on my shaping!


Oat soaker in an Abe DNB

It looks like I baked these three days later, although have absolutely no recollection of the bread, except that I gave it away (but to whom?). Instead of fermenting the soaker separately, I made up the oat soaker a few hours before adding 350g water and 20g rye starter to it, mixing that up and pouring it over 500g of flour (10% T150 whole wheat) and 10g of salt and let the whole thing ferment for about 12 hours at room temp. It's so rare that I make boules, I should remember who these were given to, but I'm drawing a total blank.

But my big discovery was using sourdough instead of yogurt in my favorite yogurt cake recipe. This one got all kinds of things thrown at it: Swapped out half the flour for 25% cocoa powder and 25% ground almonds; replaced half the yogurt with 130g of starter, threw in some frozen cherries… it worked!


Then there was a quick visit back to the Hamelman five-grain levain, cocktail-sized! I tried an all-rye levain and it looks like I added a handful of cranberries. Love the taste of this one!


Adventures in rye

Having finally found a source for something called "dark rye", after so many months of being eager to try my hand (and taste buds) at a high-percentage rye bread, I was a bit disappointed to find that there were no "bits" in this supposedly whole-rye flour; the texture is desperately, uniformly fine. This leaves out something like the tourte de seigle, which specifically calls for T170 (in the French recipe), but perhaps gave me a little wiggle room for less-demanding recipes.

After scouring through the (too) many recipes bookmarked over the last year, I set my sights on Mark Sinclair's 100% rye for a number of reasons: he is extremely open as to what kind of rye flour is to be used; the levain is done in one stage and used fairly young; process sounded easy enough. And it was 100% rye; I figured if I was going to learn about the pitfalls of making rye bread, I might as well get my feet really wet.

It all went surprisingly smoothly; the video of the process was a great help and most reassuring. Of course, I did, once the loaves were shaped and in their pans, send a panicked message to Mini, who very kindly held my hand through the rest.

The baking loaves smelled absolutely wonderful. Taste and aroma are great, but I was disappointed in the crumb, which I found too dense and too uniform. I'm wondering if I should add more water, proof longer, or add seeds.

Bitten by the rye bug, I decided next on Wally's 72% rye with soaker, figuring that the 28% of a wheat flour would give me the loft and some of the openness I'd found wanting in the previous bake. I don't have high-gluten flour, so just used my usual T65 bread flour.

This was a very messy mix, and the first time in this year of baking bread that I thought wistfully about a mixer: I was up to my wrists in the stuff and wound up resorting to the Rubaud method to make sure all the ingredients were properly incorporated. This is indeed a pudding of a dough, that gets scraped/poured into its pan for proofing.

Things went rather well, but for the fact that I got into trouble with the descending temps every 15 minutes, so the top and bottom got a bit burnt, but I'm quite happy with the crumb (lead photo) and the taste. Will definitely be doing this one again. And, darn it, my parchment got stuck -- that's never happened before.


And a last oat-soaker Abe DNB

Just for good measure. Because I knew we were going to be out for most of the day, I mixed everything together and left it on the counter. I took a look at it when we got home and could probably have proceeded to shaping, but I needed to get dinner underway, so stuck the thing in the fridge until later on, then preshaped and bench rested. The shaping was a bit of a challenge, and I was afraid of frisbees, so I shaped as best I could, coated the loaves with seeds and plopped them into these Pani-bois baking forms, which I'd bought for the rye bakes.

 

Thank goodness that worked…

Now, what shall this week bring?

 

Comments

syros's picture
syros

My goodness I’m dizzy from all your bakes! Wow, they all look fantastic and delicious. I will have to venture to try a couple of them. Actually, I’m exhausted just reading it! NIce baking! 

Sharon

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Sorry about that! And thanks for the kind words. Your SF bakes are fab! 

Keep on baking, 

Carole 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

Carole and you are asking me whether I am sleeping with sooooo many bakes?

I love the loaves that are coated with all those yummy seeds and you have a consistently beautiful crumb!  You have my respect for going into rye territory and looks totally amazing.

Spring has started here after a darker and wetter spell and I hope the sun is shining where you are too with lots of butter on those delicious looking loaves!   Kat

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

These were baked over the course of about three weeks, so I'm definitely not losing sleep over bread 😄!

I'm just bad at taking notes, and thought the blog would help me keep my bakes straight and remind me of what worked and what didn't. Hmmm. 

The rye isn't as scary as I thought it would be, and in some ways, these two rye bakes were easier: mix levain and wait; mix dough and wait; shape or pour into pans and wait; bake, cool and wait some more. So, no anguish about gluten development, degassing, shaping or scoring. The only biggie is trying to figure out the right kind/grind if rye flour. But I guess that will come...

You've inspired me to maybe try a Champlain loaf. Do you do the pre-mix as Trevor indicates, or do you leave the pre-mix in the fridge overnight? 

Keep on baking, 

Carole 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and I think it is a nice way to document one's baking journey. I can see it with many bakers going through posts here or on IG and you can see their baking journey.

A bit like a baking diary...

I normally use a bit more water depending on what white flour I have available. I don't really do the pre-mix with salt but just a long AL without the salt and only if I have a strong Candadian or American flour. With my normal Organic Strong Marriages for instance I would find that a 4 hours or longer (in essence the time it would take for my levain that I built in the morning to get ready_ ) is enough to get a beautiful texture where I can almost do a windowpane without much more mixing being required and aim for 28Cish not higher using some warm water. The AL would sit at room temp which is at the moment about 20C.or sometimes in the proofer to be warmer...Then I add the levain which would be 28C or so from proofer. Dough goes in proofer and add salt after 30 min with warmer water.  If the dough needs a couple of slap and folds but might not need much due to AL and into proofer aiming for 25C ish temp...

I stretch and fold or coil folds after 30 min, if a bit wetter after 30 min again..if stronger on an hourly basis...for another 2 X times and then try to leave the dough alone for the last 1 hour or so...I aim for close to doubling maybe a bit less...

I hope this helps... Kat

p.s. I also sometimes use a 80% hydration starter and because it is slower I adopt the same process as above but start AL without salt  at 10PM or so and add levain which has been building over night slowly at 6AM or so.....I am not sure what to do about starter hydration as it throws the baking timings a bit... I always liked building a leaven from a starter that is ready early in the morning and then sometimes use it younger... This routine does not work very well with a slower starter ...so not sure what I will do and might go back to 100% as I do not see much difference in oven spring nor taste...and not quite summer here yet...

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I tried Trevor's premix once, except that I forgot to take it out of the fridge before bedtime. Knowing what I know now about my French flours, that was probably a good thing. I've never done a four-hour autolyse, will be curious to see what happens!

What are you baking today?

syros's picture
syros

Carole, keep them coming. It’s fascinating reading. Really, and inspiring!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Thanks for the kind words. The inspiration is here, with all of these knowledgeable and experienced bakers and just plain nice people.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bread in the world and the easiest to make as well - a real two'fer  All the bread looks grand for sure.  Nice work.  Well done and happy baking DW!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I'm very much enjoying the taste of the rye loaves. Had some for lunch with marinated fish, it was great.

Wish I could be at your cinco de mayo bacchanal, it would be a hoot!

Keep on baking! 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

You love oat bread a lot, don't you? The crumb of that rye bread looks fine to me. It seems moist but not sticky or crumby. Nice bakes!

Can you share your recipe of the yogurt cake? It looks scrumptious! 

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Actually, it's because I buy my oat flakes in 500g bags, and then feel like they take up too much room in the cupboard, so I go on a binge to reduce that volume of the bag. Dopey, I know.

Thanks for the comment about the crumb in the first rye: it was neither sticky nor crumbly, just not very interesting. In that same original thread, Mini made a variation with chia seeds. I may try that.

I'll happily post the yogurt cake recipe when I get to a proper keyboard 😊.

Keep on baking, 

Carole 

Edit: the recipe is now posted here.

Abe's picture
Abe

When you go quiet you actually get more busy. Each one a gem.

You've got such a great rise from the DNB. The DNB takes away the hands on which has left you to perfect the timing which you have nailed! Not as easy as it sounds. And you're left with such a great risen loaf it's almost circular.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Don't forget that the DNB were baked in wooden "pans", an artifice I think I shall resort to whenever I feel like I can't build enough surface tension (in the loaf, not my nerves). But I am pleased with the way they opened. My timing is quite haphazard, though, I sort of look at it and give it a wee poke and decide what to do next. 

I love the DNB in midweek, especially now since I'm throwing in a soaker as well. What do you suppose would happen if the ww went from 20 to 30%? Might it ferment too quickly to ensure a 12-hour DNB? 

Looking forward to your next bake. 

syros's picture
syros

Carole, with the DNB, how many grams of oats did you use and water? And when did you incorporate the oats? The bread looks fantastic. Your blog is like a class on bread baking adventures! 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

and little lambs eat ivy…

Sorry, Sharon, I'm feeling a little giddy tonight. Now, to answer your question: 50g of rolled oats, 100g boiled water. For this bake. But I'm quite sure (or at least I found notes to that effect) that I tried it also at 40g oats to 60g boiling water. And I always toss in a handful of seeds.

Other notes:

  • For the 500g of flour, I swapped in 20% whole wheat.
  • 20-ish grams of starter (20g on the scale, then I added whatever was stuck on the spoon)
  • I think I gave it one very cautious set of letter folds about three hours after mixing, just before going out for the day.
  • It's still quite cool here, so that should be taken into account.
  • After 10 hours, it was looking very proofy, but I didn't have time to preshape/rest/shape, so put the dough in the fridge for about 3.5/4 hours.
  • Warning: dough is very slack and very tacky, bordering on sticky and shaping was a challenge, hence the pani-bois molds.

And, no, there are other, far more talented, precise, and articulate bakers on TFL who are teachers of master classes!

Have fun!

EDIT: Sorry, Sharon, just realized I didn't answer the second part of your question. I added the soaker at the same time I was mixing the dough, so it should be made in advance (like maybe when you make your levain) and allowed to cool.

syros's picture
syros

Carole, I admire all your bakes, because it gives me the confidence to one day go rogue and become adventurous like you! I will give your bread a go because I really like the oats in the bread. Very moist. Keep those bakes a comin....! It’s how we all learn - from each other and our own mishaps and risks!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

is usually nothing more than adapting to what flours, materials or time are available to me 😊. But thanks for the vote of confidence -- bolsters my confidence. How'd your hamelman loaf come out?

Cedarmountain's picture
Cedarmountain

Oh my, Carole, so many breads so little time!  Thank you for several things...mostly for your evident enthusiasm for baking, it's encouraging following your bread baking exploits; and for being curious and bold enough to try whatever catches your attention and sharing it with the rest of us!  Keep doing what you're doing, keep sharing the results, I will watch for your next blog post!

 

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

that I go off half-cocked trying all kinds of things that may or may not work. Look at your fermented oat soaker, for instance -- all of a sudden, I'm adding a soaker to an overnight loaf and just letting the whole thing ferment.

If anyone had told me a year ago, when I started on this journey, that bread-baking would become my secret garden, I'd have had my doubts. But that's exactly what has happened. It's my space, where the rest of the world just melts away, where all kinds of things can go wrong but nothing bad can happen. Too bad I can't retreat into it permanently. As you say, so many breads, so little time!

I'll be watching for your posts, too.

Keep on baking,

Carole

syros's picture
syros

Your comment made me laugh because in the midst of all this baking I am starting my tomato seeds, another passion which I could be totally immersed in. So many tomatoes and so little time, just like so many breads to make and not enough time in the day!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

I ate a tomato worthy of the name must've been over 25 years ago, purchased at the weekly market in Gaillac from an old almost-toothless papy who just brought whatever he had in his garden. 

It was huge, ugly as all get-out, knobby, bright red and meaty. In Paris, regardless of the price or season, you get skin, seeds and water. 

So, I envy you your tomatoes, not to mention the garden!

syros's picture
syros

Here's the Hamelman 5 Grain: All in all - I'm happy with it! It's quickly becoming a family favorite.

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

It looks perfect inside and out, as dab would say!

Enjoy it and keep on baking  😊

wally's picture
wally

That’s a nice open crumb on the rye. Nicely done!

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

for taking the time to say so. i (and the people I've gifted these loaves with) have become definite fans of this one. The most recent iteration is here and I think the crumb has gotten better.

Please feel free to crit and give pointers, this one is your baby! BTW, you hinted in the Rut or Rye post that you had some 80 or 90% ryes hiding up your sleeve? Would you be able to point me in their direction?

Thanks again, and keep on baking.

Carole

wally's picture
wally

Carole, I have to admit that my attempts at higher content ryes beyond my 72% recipe have disappointed me in that the crumb is not open enough to make me happy. So I’ve stayed with the 72% whose results consistently please me. I will pass along one bit of advice Jeff Hamelman gave me, and that is to invest in a Pullman pan for this type of rye. You get a noticeably better looking loaf with a bit more rise to it. Pullman’s will fit a 3# loaf nicely - you proof to about 1/2 - 3/4” to the top of the pan and bake without the lid. Before baking I lightly dock the top of the loaf with a fork which keeps nasty splits from opening where the dough may be weaker at some point.

 

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

A three-pound loaf is a tad large, as I prefer to make smaller ones to share out with friends. I'll see if I can get my hands on some 18cm pullman pans, and in the meantime I shall learn how to dock the loaves to avoid the crevasse on the top.

Keep on baking,

Carole