The Fresh Loaf

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Baking straight from fridge and retard time

Piloni's picture
Piloni

Baking straight from fridge and retard time

Hello all.

I have been experimenting with retardation and methods with a 65% hydration sourdough after having issues with over fermentation on my previous doughs.

I am hoping to get some advice on a few issues included with this bake.

The above picture shows the dough which was bulk proofed for 4 hours with s +f every hour, preshaped and retarded after shaping for 14 hours, and baked for 40 munutes. However the right was baked straight from the fridge and the left was proofed at room temperature (here was 27°C) for 1 hour until the poke test and dough felt ready.

The FDT Of the loaf that was left to proof outside fridge just before baking was 18°C and the one straight from the fridge was 8°C. Fridge currently running between 2 - 6°C

In my opinion the loaf which was baked from cold (right) shows more density especially in the very center of loaf and is slightly smaller in size. However it had great oven spring with good height and dough coming through the scoring.

I was hoping to get some of your opinions on the methods shown as I feel baking straight from the fridge is a lot more practical for someone like me who bakes many loaves and also because I do not have a professional proofer to control the final proof temperature.

An example of this is later that day, as I was pleased with the result, I baked my remaining 4 loaves after 1 hour of final proofing. However measuring the temperature of the dough just before baking it had reached 28°C as I was unaware the room temperature had gone up drastically. This resulted in loaves with less oven spring and dull colour. I was wondering if this was due to the higher final dough temperature or the longer retardation...19 hours of retard in fridge.

How much is TOO much retardation with shaped loaves??

Also my shaping needs work and feel the air pockets under crust are due to insufficient degassing...would this be the answer.

Many thanks in advance (apologies for asking 3 questions in one post!)

J

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

Color/lack of spring is due to slight over proofing.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

once the loaf temperature reaches 37-38 F (2-3 C), yeast activity comes to a near complete stop so it really doesn't matter if you retard it 12 or 24 hours. You must make sure though that your fridge temp is set to 37-38 F. 

I use to have watch the dough in the fridge but once I dropped the temperature of the fridge, that was no longer necessary. 

You also need to know your dough. Some doughs need an hour of proofing on the counter or in a warm place before being put into the fridge. Others can go directly into cold mode. I am still learning this but tend to put doughs that are very airy right into cold mode where others who are a bit less developed might spend a half hour to an hour in a warm spot before going into the fridge. 

I hope this helps!

Ru007's picture
Ru007

My fridge is really cold so i can leave my loaves in there for a long time (last loaf went into the fridge for 19 hours) and then bake straight from the fridge.  

I tend to let my loaves proof for at least an hour after shaping before going into the fridge, before i started doing this i used to end up with slightly more tight crumbs (slight under proofed loaves). 

I don't see any rise in my dough after its come out of the fridge. 

Happy baking :)

P.S. Your loaves look good!

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

I think it is primarily timing rather than starting temp of loaves that go in the oven, and I think your experiment supports the conclusion that it is a matter of getting just the right level of proofing makes the difference.  Some people bake straight from the fridge, some let loaves warm up...both methods work, and it is more about what allows you to get (and recognize) proper proofing.

That said, there are a number of folks who claim that baking cold loaves allows for great spring in the oven (reasoning about the volume of retained air at cold temp providing greater potential for expansion when that air heats up). 

For me, I like the convenience of going straight from the fridge (if I get the timing right), AND I really prefer to handle and score cold loaves.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I'm in bikeprof's court on this.  Long cold fermentation and, whether SD or commercial yeasted dough, baking straight from retard is what I do.  The cold dough is easier to handle and there is no miscalculating any proofing stage, no constant checking of timers or dough nor any need to poke it.  The ambient room temperature is a non-existent issue and I control the schedule, rather than the schedule controlling me.  I can pick and choose when I want to bake - all within reason, of course.

Now, here is a consideration about the length of retard for your SD loaves.  As with anything to be refrigerated or warmed up, the yeast in this case does not hit the magical temperature as soon as you close the refrigerator door.  The bulk mass of dough will take its sweet time coming completely to ambient temperature.  In other words, your yeast will continue to work until the entire bulk of dough is cold enough to put it to sleep.  

And while it may be true that your yeast in the retarding levain is snoozing away and almost completely inactive, the same cannot be said for the lactobacilli in the dough.  It is still, if I have this correct, working tirelessly on its long hard task of breaking down the proteins in the gluten structure.

 So while in theory it may be a "good" idea to make a SD dough and store it long term in the refrigerator, there is a point where the LABs will begin to degrade the gluten.  How long is that?  I can't answer that one, not enough experience and certainly not a microbiologist.  But I routinely leave my dough to retard for anywhere from ~12-18 hours or more.  That time frame seems to work well for me.

As far as your shaping needing work?  I doubt that there are more than a handful of TFLers who don't feel that their shaping needs more work.  Join the crowd!  As far as degassing, that is a matter of knowing the characteristics of your dough as well as practice.  Gentle but firm is a way I describe how I degas during my letter folds/stretch and folds.

 

Piloni's picture
Piloni

Thankyou for your advice and thanks also to all who have commented.

I have always been concerned about the length of time the dough takes to cool whilst retarded (as mentioned i had issues with over fermentation and breakdown of proteins)and could see with my doughs they a proofed a fair bit in the fridge. 

I think I am going to bake this recipe straight from the fridge which will be a much more practical option and I loved the oven spring it gave them. 

I am going to change my bake temperature and times so that hopefully the next time they will be as close to perfect as I can get them!

Thanks 

J

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

cold temps.  Yeast are nearly inactive when it comes to reproduction rates at 36 F and some LAB are 3 times more active than yeast  at that temperature but 3 times of not much is still not very much.

When it comes to protease action that breaks the gluten bonds in bread, temperature and the flour used make a huge difference as well.  Under normal bread making procedures at room temperatures, protease action can be totally ignored for white breads.  Most of the protease is found in the bran and it is removed in the milling process.  Also for every 18 degrees F increase in temperature, protease action doubles so at 36 F the protease action is cut by a factor of 4.  Since white bread processes aren't affected by protease action in the first place, you an keep white breads in the fridge, bulk fermenting (hardly at all after the dough gets down in temperature as Alan says) for days and days with no ill effects.

This is why some pizza dough is kept for a week that way at many pizza places and why some home bakers make a big batch of dough at home on the weekend and then take a piece of it each day to make a loaf of bread for the rest of the week.

Whole grain breads are a bit different.  They have more protease since the bran was not removed but, even when using whole grains and normal whole grain bread making processes, protease action is never a factor to worry about and you can retard a whole grain bread for at least a couple of days since the cold also retards protease action.  The idea that protease will turn your dough into goo when making bread normally is pretty much a urban myth.  What does happen is over fermenting and over proofing - a lot..... which makes that dough appear that it has been damaged by protease action.

That doesn't mean that a baker can't devise a procedure where protease action will break down the gluten - like whole grains fermented at 94 F for a very long time - but who does that on purpose more than once?

Also rye has its own sets of requirements for baking.  Whole rye breads don't have a gluten structure to break down and even has different enzymes at work than other flours s it has its own set procedures but you can also retard a 100% whole rye bread in the fridge for a long time too if the the recipe is constructed correctly - a supposed real no no for rye bread - but cold slows down all enzyme actions enough in rye to pull it off.

For most bread making, when retarding a shaped loaf and baking it directly from the fridge at a certain time consistently depends on many things -  room temperature, the amount of pre-fermented flour used,how the levain was built, the kind of starter, water temperature, how long the dough was at room temperature for gluten development and ferment after the levain hit the mix, the flour used, temperature of the fridge, The refrigeration power of your fridge, the size of the dough mass and how long it was retarded.  With the proper amounts the kind and process for all of these, you can devise a recipe that will proof where you want it to, in the fridge,  for the amount of time you want it to and be able to bake it straight out of the fridge with fairly consistent success.  It is just trial and error to get it just right  - and that is the fun part.

Happy baking 

  

Piloni's picture
Piloni

You have all been very helpful.  This is such a great site with an amazing network of people and advice. 

Thanks, J