Feedback please on First Hamelman Vermont Sourdough
This is the actually the second attempt. The first loaves stuck to the bannetons. Much soul searching ensued. I have found both times that the dough is quite sticky to work with. I made several changes this time:
1. Fed culture 3 times before building levain (vs. building straight from fridge after week or two of no feeding);
2. Full hour autolyse (vs. to 20-30 minutes);
3. Mixing in Kitchen Aid, dough reached recommended temp (vs. sticky, frustrating hand kneading)
4. 2 folds (vs. 1);
5. Pre-shaped, followed by bench rest (vs. not);
6. Final proof in cloth inside bannetons (vs. not)
7. Though I never got this far last time due to the disaster, use of lava rocks, with 2 cups. I have a Blue Star range/oven, and the steam seemed to exit the oven very quickly. I did two subsequent steamings, but didn't get the same amount of steam as the first time. I'm thinking of separating the lava rocks into two different containers next time.
Result from my point of view. I'd appreciate your thoughts:
1. Great color
2. Do razor blades only stay sharp for a few cuttings? I had difficulty making the cuts, and the bread shows it. Oven spring was not bad, considering.
3. Crust is good, nice and crunchy the first day, pretty hard to slice. Perhaps a little too thick?
4. Crumb - here is where I have several questions.
a. Clearly more holes on the top. Final proof had seam side up, so is it underproofed? [EDIT: I've since seen dabrownman's claim elsewhere that this is due to lack of preshaping with bench rest--ouch! I did both after watching Hamelman's video 10 times!] It proofed 2:45, 15 minutes longer that Hamelman's max due to oven taking longer to preheat than expected.
b. The crumb is good, but fairly heavy, too. I've certainly had store bought artisan bread that is similar, but I also assume the poor lame cuts and possible shorter steam lead to reduced oven spring, and thus denser crumb.
5. Overall flavor is quite good. The family loves it. It has artisan bakery qualities. My culture is no longer very sour. I tried to refresh it up to sourness with WW flour feeds at 84 (the highest I could get), but it wasn't enough. I have ordered the Brod & Taylor device. It felt great to do the pre- and final shaping from Hamelman's videos and book. I wish I could spend a week working on my dough handling skills.
Comments
Hello Fil,
I am very impressed. Hope some other baker can give you more feedback but as for steaming this is what I do now! http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20162/oven-steaming-my-new-favorite-way
I would say that the dough was underfermented and the shaping was not assertive enough for the dough this soft.
I fermented at bulk and final proof at the max per the recipe, but the levain more toward the 12 hour end than the 16. Would that make the difference? I did the poke test and thought it was there; maybe I misinterpreted.
Are you suggesting I didn't degas enough in preshaping? I followed Hamelman's directions and videos for both pre and final shaping, so I'm not sure what I was supposed to do differently. Iit's a very soft dough, true, and I'm very new to sourdough. I'd appreciate further direction.
Book times are meaningless if you do not know how your starter behaves and do not watch your environment. A bit weaker starter than needed, temperature a few degrees off and 3 hours will turn into 5 just like that.
I don't think preshaping is all that critical, but the actual shaping and proofing is. You need to make sure that you shape tighter, provide adequate support and move from proofing to baking quickly. All that requires some experience.
Thanks, points taken. Should the levain double? I don't have the book in front of me but I seem to recall him not specifying on that point, but rather describing the "soapy bubbles" effect. Mine was maybe 80%.
With the boule I can see shaping tighter. Here's a good post for batard shaping I just found.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24865/shaping-batard
No, 125% sour does not double, it rises by 50% or so. You judge it by foaming and structure for the most part.
Shaping help, but, asI mentioned, proper side support is important, as is proofing - you dough should have just enough oomph left in it to inflate during baking and acquire pleasing shape without blowing up.
In his book, Hamelman is pretty specific about the Desired Dough Temperature and the ambient fermenting temperature. His timings are tied to these two factors. If your dough was cooler and you bulk fermented and proofed at a lower temperature then the rising times would be considerably longer. If they were warmer, they would be shorter.
I had to do half-a-dozen test bakes before I worked out the required times to proof this dough when it was cold retarded. Because of its rye content it is perhaps not the easiest dough to handle, shape and bake in his book, so maybe you shouldn't be too disappointed with this first attempt. Quite the opposite.
By the way, leave it a few days and the sourness will develop. It's what I look forward to. Hope you do to. :)
Thanks for the feedback, both of you. I'm in that fledgling stage, having read a lot, but with little actual experience baking at this level.
I've been using a heating pad in a cooler, and measured idle water at 75 F, which is close to Hamelman's 76. I did the levain at around 70 F, as called for, and all the fermenting at 76. He doesn't specify bulk fermentation temp for some reason, so I assumed 76 F. Yesterday my Brod & Taylor arrived, so I'm hoping for more accurate, consistent temps.
The bread on Day 2 is tough to the point of being undesirable to my taste, even toasted. I'm wondering if that is due largely to defects, or if it's a feature.
As to retarding, I've done it with the Breadtopia miche recipe I've made 3 times. On the third bake, even after a 24-hour retard, there was almost no sourness. This is 2 or 3 weeks after my first bake produced a perfectly sour loaf.
As you're in California, could you try using cool/cold water when mixing and proof at room temperature?
I agree with the others that these look under-proofed - is it possible you're too scared of the ambient temperature...?
From the external picture it looks like you're going in the right direction but might need closer to 3.5-4hours rather than 2.5 hours on the bulk ferment...
An alternative to the stickiness is to switch to the whole wheat version on the next page!
Good luck and please keep us updated on your progress.
My house was built in 1910 and I have no central heat, and it's about 60F at room temp. I now have the Brod & Taylor, so I can expect ideal temperatures now.
I edited this paragraph. I will try a longer bulk ferment next time. I'm not sure what would have tipped me off that it was under proofed after the bulk, though. I'd appreciate your insight there.
I'm grateful for the advice, and glad there's a concensus about the over proofing. This is correctable, and I look forward to trying it again. One last question, do you preshape a dough like this?
I could do with some american geography lessons ;)
When kneading this dough it is quite strong and bounces back a bit from being manipulated. If you'll excuse the quality of the comparison a bit like a tensed muscle. At the end of the bulk fermentation, you should have seen a bit of an increase in size and the dough is a bit softer and resists being poked a bit less (like a relaxed muscle). If things are getting out of control fluffy and doubled in size (like most people's bottoms) then probably things have gone a bit too far.
Hope that helps (and that someone else will chime in if they disagree as I'm definitely no expert!!)