The Fresh Loaf

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Adapting crust recipe from AP to 00

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mini_maggie's picture
mini_maggie

Adapting crust recipe from AP to 00

Would you expect to substitute an equal volume or weight of Italian 00 pizza flour for AP in a recipe?  Or expect to need adjustment?  As it's finer, I'd think maybe there is more weight of 00 per cup compared to AP? 

Was thinking of trying Floyd's pizza crust recipe, but it's in cups and for AP, and I wanted to try the 00 flour I picked up. Pizza recipes in FWSY give weight, but are also for AP and I'd like to know generally if equal weight substitution should be expected to work.   

Thanks for any input!

ericreed's picture
ericreed

Personally, I haven't had any trouble doing a 1:1 substitution of AP and 00 flours. But they can absorb water differently, so you may need a little more or a little less water to get the same results. Yeast and salt is based on the weight of the flour, so changing the flour amount means changing those as well. Much easier to adjust the hydration.

isand66's picture
isand66

You can use equal weight of AP to 00 type flour.  You may have to increase the water a little but you will have to go by feel to see.

Here is a recipe I combined bread flour with 00 flour which works real well http://mookielovesbread.wordpress.com/2012/02/09/pizza-pizza-and-calzones/

Here is a recipe from David Snyder that he adapted from Ken Forkish and it uses mostly 00 with a little whole wheat.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/34452/pizza-bliss

Good luck.

adri's picture
adri

00 will have less gluten. You might need a little less water.

ericreed's picture
ericreed

The AP flour I use is 11.7% protein, and the 00 flour 12.5%. Not all the protein is available for gluten, but it does seems like if anything my 00 should have more gluten forming potential. The 00 does tend to need less water, but as I understand it, that's due to the fineness of the grind more than anything.

adri's picture
adri

Hm, might this be a special Tipo 00 for NY-style pizza? (NY style is similar to Neapolitan style but with higher gluten flour and a little less heat). Usually 00 has a minimum of 9%. It might have more, but 3.5%-points is much.

12.5% might be the strongest 00 ever seen on the market ;)

 

edit: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farina also shows 00 much lower in gluten as AP.

ericreed's picture
ericreed

It's the Caputo 00 flour, so very common and widely available. I'm sure it varies between brands, just as regular flours do, but 00 refers to the ash content and grind, it has no bearing on protein content.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Tipo 00 is soft wheat flour with less gluten than AP.

I tried all kinds of American flour combinations to achieve the desired consistency for my German Weizenbrötchen, and only succeeded when I discovered Tipo 00 flour (Italian equivalent to German Typ 405 that I can't easily get here.)

My trials with AP flour led to a chewy, lean crumb, like French bread, not the fluffy, easy to pull out crumb of German everyday rolls.  (American/European flour "translation", see here.)

Karin

ericreed's picture
ericreed

http://caputoflour.com/sales-pos-products-specs/

00 "pizza chef" is listed as 13.5% +/- 0.5%.

00 "pizzeria" is listed as 12.75% +/- 0.5%.

00 "rinforzato rosso" is listed as 13% +/- 0.5%.

On the web, people almost universally refer to Caputo 00 flours as having 12.5% protein, which seems if anything slightly lower than the actual according to these.

Under King Arthur's low protein 00 flour, they note "The "00" refers to the grind of the flour, and how much of the wheat's bran and germ have been removed, not to its protein level. There are low-, high- and in-between 00 flours. Our version is one of the lower protein ones."

Serious Eats agrees that 00 does not refer to protein content, and says of Caputo 00 flour, "This is the gold standard of pizza flours by which most others are judged, but there's quite a bit of confusion as to exactly what it is. You'll read in countless sources that Italian Tipo "00" flour, like the Caputo, is a "soft wheat flour," with a low protein content. This is absolutely untrue and anybody who continues to spread this rumor should be immediately chastised with great prejudice.

The fact is, the label Tipo "00" has nothing to do with protein content. Rather, it refers to the fineness of the milling. Tipo "00" is the finest grade of flour milled in Italy, and it has a consistency similar to baby powder. It's available with several different levels of protein intended for different baking projects, just like American flours"

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

How do you read this?  Photo from bag...  note this is not the pizza flour.  

ericreed's picture
ericreed

Are we in disagreement about something? My only point is to say that "00" is not a designation of protein content and that higher protein 00 flours are not uncommon, indeed are widely preferred for use in pizza. If Caputo has a lower protein flour in their lineup, it doesn't harm my case. Or are you saying that the spec sheets Caputo puts out don't match the bags?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

there are also specific Pizza flours, it's easy to be confused as a pizza is pictured  (front center with other baked products) on the bag.  The "Red" Caputo, Chef flour, there is an even bigger pizza and the protein for 30g is 3%. ( And it makes good pizza too.)  The spec sheet says 13.5% protein.  The package says 9 or even 10%,  a soft flour with low protein and AP common.  So I don't see the crime for chastisement,  If anything, Caputo themselves have added to the confusion with their packaging picturing pizza on the low protein flours bags when the protein on the spec sheet is higher.

The only trouble with the word "protein" generally on every flour bag, is that the package doesn't say how much of the protein is gluten.  

ericreed's picture
ericreed

I noted earlier that not all the protein is necessarily gluten forming. If the protein amounts listed on the spec sheets and bags don't match for whatever reason, and the actual protein is lower, or if how Americans measure protein is different from Italians, that's fine. I thought about deleting the chastisement line from the quote, since it seemed a bit harsh, but I erred on the side of a faithful full quotation. Nonetheless, it doesn't change that "00" refers to ash content, not protein content, and that different "00" flours have different amounts of protein.

isand66's picture
isand66

You are correct..Embarrassingly I went back and re-read my own post and I even said to use less water.  Sorry about my mis-information.  Seems the gluten is not the issue based on the rest of this thread but how fine the flour is milled must have something to do with the amount of water it absorbs.

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

Seems the gluten is not the issue based on the rest of this thread but how fine the flour is milled must have something to do with the amount of water it absorbs.

Yes. Just for a little extra perspective, cake flour, which is by definition low protein, and generally very finely milled, tends to have a pretty high absorption. So, flour can be thirsty for a variety of reasons. Our bias here is to think about protein content because it's one of the most relevant factors when thinking about bread.

mini_maggie's picture
mini_maggie

Your guidance is greatly appreciated!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I've found that with winter's dehydrating air, some flour bags weigh less than specified, in other words less than the 15% hydration they claim to be and therefore absorb more water.  So you might get some idea placing the bag of flour on the scales and subtracting the bag weight to see how it compares.  If less than specified weight, chances are good you'll need more water, if heavier use less.  There was a time when the packages listed the total weight and inside weight, not sure they do that anymore.

I would not compare two recipes (one in cup, the other metric)  and assume they have the exact end dough weight.  Numbers will be rounded up or down for convenience and simplicity.   If I wanted to compare two specific recipes, I would switch them to metric to compare.  You can easily switch Floyd's recipe to metric, use your regular ingredients and just measure with cups and weigh on a scales to convert.  Then make the same recipe with the new flour. 

Mini

suave's picture
suave

When I use regular, not pizzeria-style high gluten, Italian 00 flour for pizza I aim for 57% hydration.