The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Problem with Doughie Crumb - Tartine No3 Wheat Rye 20 with Mixed Seeds

CeciC's picture

Problem with Doughie Crumb - Tartine No3 Wheat Rye 20 with Mixed Seeds

I have used the same formula as last week, but i substitute the aromatic seeds with a cup of soaked flax and a cup of toasted mixed seeds (Sunflower, pumpkin, poppy seed, white sesame and black sesame). 

I did everything exactly the same way, when It comes to shaping, it feels sticky which is unusual and when it come out of the fridge from second proof, it spread and my heaert sank. 

I shove it into the oven anyway, it sprang up a bit. I was too disappointed to take a pic of it. It feels heavy when it came out of the oven, I thought It must be a tight crumb brick which can go straight into the trash. I cut it up n its heavy with lots of holes. 

Anyone knows why it turns out like this? Would it have anything to do with flaxseeds that makes it doughie?


golgi70's picture

I just made a similar loaf with soaked flaxseeds.  I've only added flax dry and not presoaked in the past and they seemed to gel a bit.  My loaf is very soft and I attribute this to the flax soaker.  I think if you let the loaf set for a day your crumb may improve which was my experience with the very moist crumb from the rice bread.  The seperation at the top of your loaf may imply some overproofing which also may be part of the problem your having.  

Looks pretty good none the less.  See how it goes as toast.

Happy Baking


CeciC's picture

Yea i think you are right, yesterday when it first came out of the oven, its not edible. Today I had it toasted this morning its better, I guess it would be best when it hits its third


breadforfun's picture

I think you're right that the flax is the issue here.  Flax is known to form a gel when it is soaked - in fact it is often used as a binding agent for things like crackers and tarts in the raw food movement.  A cup of flax is quite a bit, you didn't mention the weight but my guess is that it is close to 150 gm plus the soaking water (they absorb a lot of water).  The additional water may throw off the hydration of the dough or prevent it from forming a decent gluten structure. 

Hamelman's wonderful 5-grain levain calls for 9.2% flaxseed, so I would not exceed that amount.  As an aside, if you haven't tried that bread you may really like it.


dabrownman's picture

to look at the formula but couldn't find.  I assume it was one of the 3 bakes you made on one post.  But the rye bread i think i twas didn't have the formula and referred to a previous bake :-)

A higher % rye bread that is already pretty wet,  the soaked flax seeds didn't help, could have contributed to the sticky feel that the previous one didn't have.  I can't remember a rye bread that wasn't sticky to the touch since Lucy loves to push the hydration:-)  You will get used to it!

Rye bread needs time to redistribute the moisture - especially one with with so much soaked flax  - no worries. I love the open, glossy crumb very much and this bread has to taste great. 

I don't like to soak flax or chia seeds (because they gel) or any seed for that matter because I have found it to be too easy to lose control over the hydration in the final dough.   They tend to expire and push extra water into the bread as it bakes too - leading to a possible gummy crumb.  I like to buzz them up to a coarse meal, so you can digest them, still see them well in teh crumb and use their weight in the hydration calculations.  A long at least 4 hours autolyse of the dough, allows them to soak tup he extra water at that time and they aren't flying all over the place during the slap and folds becsue they a not whole seeds:-)

If I want to put 80 g of flax seeds in a normal 80% hydration dough I would add 64 g of liquid to the dough.  I get better results that way.

Lower gluten breads like rye and spelt are going to want to spread more than others.  Some compensate by lowering the hydration -  a 30% rye Tzitzel can be less than 70 % hydration is one example of that.  I prefer a more open crumb and higher hydration, so for me it is the long autolyse of the weak whole grain flours  where can really soak up the water that helps the most.

Proofing in the fridge is great because it firms these weaker gluten bread up to prevent  spread adn makes them easier to slash but the bad side is that if you plan to bake them first thing in teh morning they may over proof in the frige and be past the 85% mark pretty easily - with a rye / spelt bread being the worst.   Overproofing as Josh pointed out may be the cause off the large hole in the top middle but it also may contribute to the spread too.

For these kinds of bread, I like to have them planned to finish the 8-12 hour cold proof in the fridge at 10 AM. That way, when i check on them a 6-7 AM when I get up, if they are proving faster than anticipated we can quickly change plans and bake them off when they do get to 85% proof at say 7 or 8 AM.

I think without the hole, which also might be a weird shaping oddity where a large gas pocket got through,you bake a great bread.  If you baked it to 205 F on the inside then the moisture just needs time to redistribute properly.

No doubt, this has to be one of the best tasting breads you have made ?  well done and Happy Baking

CeciC's picture
Original Formula      
Wholewheat and Rye Levain      
Total Weight1985     
Weight per Serving1985     
Total Flour 1075    
Total Water 925    
Total Hydration 86.05%    
Multi-grain % 65.12%    
 Build 1Build 2Final DoughAdd-InTotal 
White Starter (100%)75   75 
Wholewheat Starter75   75 
Rye Starter    0 
Yeast Water Levain (100%)    0 
Extra-High Protein Flour (>14%)    0 
Bread Flour    0 
AP Flour  300 300 
Wholemeal Flour      
Wholewheat Flour  100 100 
Rye Flour  200 200 
High-Extraction Wheat Flour  400 400 
Water  850 850 
Others    0 
Yeast    0 
Salt  25 25 
Wheat Gem  70 70 
Caraway Seeds   2020 
Corriander Seeds   2020 
Autolyse all ingridient
 (except Salt & Seeds)
60 Min     
Add Salt Mixed with Pincer Method      
S&F 4 Times @ 30min interval      
Total Bulk Fermentation4h 0m     
- Refridgerate /16:00     
Bake - Cover20-25     
Bake -Uncover25     

I love your idea on Flax Meal!!! I will give this bread another go this weekend. i need to master this bread!! coz seriously it has a very very intense flavor apart from the texture is not the best. 

I will definitely incorporate your suggestion into my coming bake!!!