The Fresh Loaf

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Can I transfer risen dough to the baking tins?

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RB32689's picture

Can I transfer risen dough to the baking tins?

My bread making is with Organic spelt and I use a fast action/ easy blend yeast. On most occasions the outcome is good.

1. Sometimes the result can be a bit sour. The sourness does not come with every batch, so I have assumed that the dough may not have risen enough, or baked fully. Does any one have a better explanation for that occasional bitter twange?

2. I am thinking of buying a cool box for the dough rising process. I will put a 20 watt heated mat inside with a thermostat controller. Can I successfully do the rise in one pot (one that will fit in the box) and then transfer the risen dough to the tins for immediale baking? (My main reason for buying the cool box is to ferment natto but I might as well use the same box for my dough)


WoodenSpoon's picture

you can totally do the bulk ferment in the box, but it would probably be inadvisable to move proofed loaves from one container to another.


RB32689's picture

Could you please explain the difference between a ferment and a proofed loaf? I thikn you are saying that my idea of one pot with risen flour, is not a good idea if I intend to transfer the risen contents to baking tins.

WoodenSpoon's picture

The bulk ferment is the first fermentation, it is done with the dough still in one mass, it is usually the longer of the two ferments. It would be fine to bulk ferment your dough in your box then remove, divide, shape and proof in the loaf pans. proofing is the final fermentation and it is done after the loaves have been shaped. Once proofed the loaves should be handled as little and as carefully as possible and if you are planning on baking in some sort of mold/pan the loaves should be allowed to proof in said pan.

RB32689's picture

Ah, I understand. I am using the easy blend yeast so I do not do a second proving.

Any comments on the sour question?

WoodenSpoon's picture

I believe that easy blend yeast is the same as dry active yeast? the easy part being you don't need to activate it in water before mixing it in? if that is the case I think thats what most people on here use when making a commercial yeast leavened bread and the bulk ferment is pretty typical. as for the sour unless you are adding weird stuff I think you are over fermenting (over rising) the bread. and that bad taste is byproducts of the dying yeast.

RB32689's picture

Yes, it is the same as dry active yeast. It has another advantage. The second proving is not necessary and so I do not do it. Less complication for me, less to go wrong.

So it seems that I will not be able to do the bulk fermenting unless I find a box sufficiently large to take 3 * 2lbs and 2 * 3lbs. That is unlikely

BTW, as I have not noticed the loaves collapse I had not assumed that I was over rising the bread, that is not to say you are wrong.


Bakingmadtoo's picture

Robin, I am not an expert at all, but from what I have learned on here people leave bread to rise longer and cooler to increase sour flavours, so it may be that even though your dough has not proofed to the point where it collapses, you have left it long enough for it to develop a sourness that you don't like. Could you try timing your proofing time to see if there is a correlation between certain lengths of time and temperature and the flavour you do or don't want? 

MisterTT's picture

(or proof) is not really something that depends on the type of yeast you are using. Yeast is yeast, be it what we "commercial" dried or fresh (such as you are using) or wild from a starter. I'm saying this to make you understand that the proof is necessary both as a period of time for the dough to ferment and, in some cases more importantly, to give a good, even rise. Usually any bread has both bulk ferment and proof, though there are some exceptions, for example some 100% whole rye breads do not get bulk fermented and stollen is not proofed.

All that said, I don't think that the type of bread you are making benefits from not having a conventional final proof and you should consider adjusting your procedure accordingly. Now, as to the sour/bitter flavor, my thoughts are:

1. If the flavor is more bitter rather than sour, your flour may be off. Is it fresh (wholegrain flour tends to expire more rapidly than more refined flours)? Have the off-flavored breads been made from the same, or from different bags of flour? If different, were the packaging dates the same or different? Check for parasites, most notably "strings" like cobwebs in the flour. Moths often contribute the sort of flavor you are describing.

2. How much yeast are you using per kilo of flour? How long is the fermentation time? It is not so easy to coax a sour flavor from a bread using just commercial yeast with no sourdough. However, it may be the case that you are fermenting too much -- wholegrain doughs will ferment more quickly than white.

It would be simplest to help you if we knew the exact formula you are using.

RB32689's picture

There are mixed views about the need to proof fast yeast dough. My orginal recipe specified it is unnecessary. I have just done a search and some people say the same.

This recipe does not require kneeding. In fact when I have done it in the past it is a disaster with Spelt. The bread failed badly.

My current recipe:

1K 100 per cent organically produced spelt wholewheat flour,

1. Warm the flour in a large saucepan or bowl at the lowest setting in the oven for about 10 minutes, then turn the oven off.
2. Mix flour with:
(a) .5 tspn salt
(b) 7g Quick super yeast (dried)
3. Calculate boiling and cold water quantities needed to achieve 35C. See separate spreadsheet.
4. Mix boiling water with:
(a) 17g Mollases
(b) .5tsp brown sugar

5. Add cold to boiling so that total water incl ACD is 800ml. Add sufficient cold to bring temperature down to 35C add
(a) 45ml Apple Cider Vinegar
(b) 1g Vitamin C
(c) .75tbs honey
6. Use wooden spoon and begin to mix the warm liquid into the flour gradually to form a dough:
7. finish off by mixing with your hands until you have a smooth dough that leaves the bowl clean
8. Cover the moulds with a damp, clean tea cloth and leave to rise in a warm place for 30-40 minutes or at room temperature for 60 minutes.
9. At 45minutes pre-heat the oven to gas mark 6, 400°F (200°C) (Fan assisted oven 180 C).
(a) At end of dough rise check that the dough stays depressed when you push your finger in slightly.
(b) When the dough has risen sufficiently, bake the bread for
i. 40 minutes for the 2 lb (900 g) loaf tin or
ii. 30 minutes for the 1 lb (450 g) loaf tins.
(c) When the bread is cooked, turn it out on to a cloth to protect your hands – it will sound hollow when rapped underneath with your knuckles.
(d) Cool the bread on a wire rack, and never put it away or freeze it until it is absolutely cold.

RB32689's picture

Did anyone see anything particularly wrong with my recipe?

adri's picture

The recipe is not what I would do, but you can certainly bake a bread with it.

Usually adding sugar (or molasses) to the yeast means there is too much yeast
(compared to the food for it). But in this case I don't think 7g instant dry yeast is too much. (== 21g/"half a cake" fresh yeast).
I wouldn't use ascorbic acid or vinegar.
Some instructions are; well, .... ¿Why does the spoon have to be wooden? Some metals get corroded with sourdough, but even with sourdough you can use a plastic dough scraper or any tool made of stainless steel.

But about your real problem:

A) THE FLOUR: Whole wheat flour, and especially whole spelt cannot be stored very long. It gets bitter/sour very fast. Is your flour fresh? It usually is better to just store the grains and mill it just before baking.

B) THE PROOFING: I do not believe it comes from to little proofing. With too little proofing you will have a brick or a tremendous oven spring (opened crust etc.), but not a more sour taste than you would have with more proofing. It might be the exact opposite way: sourdough can get a too tangy taste if the proofing stage is too long. But here we have yeast and it certainly won't happen with your "almost no time bread".

C) NOT BAKED ENOUGH: This you usually notice after first cutting the bread. At the temperature of starch gelatinization, the yeast will already be dead.

D) DISEASES: With 85% (or even more because of the molasses and honey?) hydration the dough and the resulting bread is quite wet. Simple yeast breads without sourdough are much more likely to get diseases. If it is too wet it could be simple mould.
Also it could be "rope spoilage". Especially yeast breads with high hydration and spelt or wheat are affected. Do you see any other signs of rope spoilage?

Liebe Grüße

RB32689's picture

Adrrian, thank you for spending the time on my answer.

When I leave the Vit C out I get a much less risen loaf. So from experience I add it.

The Flour
How long does spelt keep for? I am getting it once a month in sealed 1k flour bages, and I am using it up in that time.

The result is usually quite good. I like my bread on the moist side.

Unlikely to be mould because I slice the bread as soon as it more or less has cooled and then freeze it. I only take out the slices I need immediately and defrost them at the lowest setting in a toaster.