The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Trouble with ITJB Vienna Bread

OldWoodenSpoon's picture

Trouble with ITJB Vienna Bread

I baked two loaves of Vienna Bread from Inside the Jewish Bakery tonight, and have a problem I have not seen before with pan breads.  Since pictures are worth a thousand words, here they are:

and the crumb shot:

These loaves went together without a hitch, using my stock Pendleton Mills Power bread flour.  I mixed the dough in my Bosch.  It took 13 minutes to get to a nice window pane.  Bulk rise went about 1 hour and 15 minutes due to the cold day and cold kitchen.  Same for final proof going about 1 hour and 30 minutes after shaping and panning.  The oven preheated for an hour with stones in place, and the bake took 30+ minutes to get the internal temperature up to 204F.   I took the loaves out of the oven and unpanned them onto my wire rack and went back to the movie.  When I looked in on them in about a half hour, I saw what you see.

The sides and ends of the base of these loaves all collapsed inward at the mid-line up the panned section.  If you look at the background loaf in the crumb shot you can see evidence of a "breakout" that would indicate the loaves could have proofed even a bit longer.  As the crumb shot itself shows, the loaves have a distinct hourglass figure now that they are fully cooled.  The crumb is light, with many holes of varied size, yet there is also a puzzling doughy patch up just part of just one side of this loaf.  I am assuming, but can't actually know, that this was the "inside" of the pan, toward the center of the oven and about 6 inches away from the other loaf, baked at the same time.  Given that the loaf made 204F in the center, this is a complete puzzle to me.

I ate a piece of the sample above, and aside from that doughy patch, it tastes excellent, is well done, tender and soft in the crumb with a nice "chew" to it.  I don't understand the collapse, and if you have and idea what causes this, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks for stopping by.


ananda's picture

Hi OldWoodenSpoon,

The essence of the answer to your problem is posted above.

For more detail, see Stanley Cauvain here:

you need to be reading pp.83 on.

All good wishes


thomaschacon's picture
thomaschacon (not verified)

Thanks for linking to it.

I rather thought their second reason was cause: pan too small for mass of dough, but the others make sense too.

I can't say I've ever seen commercial pans (or otherwise) of any type with side holes.

Time to send my bluebrints to China!

Elagins's picture

You're using Pendleton Mills Power, which, according to their  spec sheet, contains 13.5% protein and 0.57% ash, which makes it a very strong bread flour. Try using a weaker flour, like KA AP (Sir Galahad), GM Harvest King or Better for Bread, or Pendleton Mondako Special and you won't run into this problem.

ananda's post is also right on the mark.


jcking's picture

If the loaf is taller than wide

You can rest it on it's side.


OldWoodenSpoon's picture

Thank you all for your advice and comments.  Andy, I agree with thomaschacon:  what an interesting book!  I must try the library for a copy.  Stan, thanks for the assist.  I will try again today with my Pendleton Mills Morebread (12% protein).  This is probably still too strong, but it is what I have on hand right now, and it is much lower than the Power flour.

Many thanks to all of you

Elagins's picture

12% protein should give you a really nice result.