The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

80% rye using my new brotform

Franko's picture

80% rye using my new brotform

My new brotform arrived this past week so I decided

to do a high ratio rye bread for it's first use. I picked

Hamelman's 80% Sourdough Rye with a Rye-Flour

Soaker. The only significant change I made was to

increase the  mature sour percentage to 25%. Also I

wound up adding about 10 grams more high gluten

flour to it than the ratio called for simply because it

was the last of the bag . So maybe it's a 79.5% Sour rye but  I'm fairly pleased with the way

it turned out, particularly the flavor. It has a very good

sour tang to it that lasts on the tongue long after it's

been eaten. The crumb is consistent and it had an

even rise with no wild breaks. The thing's I'll do

differently next time is scale the final dough heavier

before putting it in the brotform . I think another 100

grams or so would have given me much better

definition for the flour prints from the brotform, in addition to a lighter dusting .

Hamelman's recipes have proven rock solid for me so

far from the 4 or 5 that I've tried and I'm wondering if

other members have had a similar experience with



ananda's picture

That's a very fine high rye loaf!

Best wishes


Franko's picture

Many thanks my friend and all the best to you as well.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think you could even skip the scoring, docking?


Franko's picture

Thanks very much for the compliment Mini. I agree about not scoring it next time. At the time I had a wee debate with myself as to score or not. I decided to hedge my bets and score lighlty. As soon as the blade cut in I knew I could have probably gotten away with out scoring. It's been quite a number of years since I've played with a high ratio rye dough , so I'm still in 'getting reaquainted' stage of the game.

All the best ,


Noor13's picture

I think it turned out very nice

Is this one of the three stage recipes?

I just made the 70% bread form Hamelman and my next attempt is the 80% but I used the Detmolder recipe and I absolutely loved it.

Franko's picture

Thanks very much !

This wasn't one of the 3 stage Detmolder recipes. One of those is next on my list. This one was just the overnight sour build then a 30 minute bulk ferment and a 50-60 min. final rise . This bread has a terrific flavor , but I understand the Detmolders are on another level yet . Looking forward to trying one out...maybe this week.


dmsnyder's picture

Yes. I've also found Hamelman's formulas very reliable. You do need to approach the book as the author intended though by carefully reading the introductory materials before tackling the formulas. 

I agree that you would get better coil definition on your bread with a lighter application of flour to the brotform. I rub an AP/Rice flour mix into the brotform using just enough to fill the gaps between the coils. 


Franko's picture

Thanks David, it's much appreciated.

I think once the brotform has been broken in a bit more it'll help matters as far as getting better definition. It's been a while since I used one so I need some breaking in as well. I've always used a light rye flour to dust forms and never encountered any major problems, but I see on other posts that rice flour or a combination of rice and AP as you suggest is fairly popular. I'll give it a go next time round.

All the best,


BerniePiel's picture

I contacted Mr. Hamelman regarding the existence of an errata sheet that I had heard about regarding his formulae in "Bread" and he sent me the following document which is the latest and greatest corrections.  Perhaps, David, you had not used the recipes that had significant changes.  He was extremely apologetic to the breadbaking community for fear he had caused loss of ingredients....I'm sorry I do not know how to attach a file to a posting on, so here is the full document and one can just copy and paste it into a Word document to keep for a ready reference.  I just taped it into my copy of his text to keep handy.


Bread A Baker’s Book of Techniques and Recipes

Jeffrey Hamelman

May 2010



Page 45, bottom:

Remove the following: “Rye flour will not form a gluten web of similar strength; although there is gluten in rye, there is considerably less than there is in wheat, hence rye breads will always have a denser structure.” In its place, add in: “Rye flour contains gliadin as well as the protein glutelin (which is similar to glutenin). However, due to the presence of pentosans (see page 46), gluten formation is not possible, hence rye breads will always have a denser structure.”


Page 46, Rye Is High in A Substance Called Pentosans:

Fourth line: change the word “glutenin” to “glutelin”

The next sentence should read: “This serves to prevent the development of gluten in rye breads.”


Page 54, Yeast:

Replace the first sentence with the following:

Yeast is a single-celled microorganism that is neither a plant nor an animal—it is a member of the fungus kingdom—and it requires suitable conditions to thrive.


Page 59—60, Milk:

The entire section has been changed. New text reads:

The food value of milk is significant, and when used in baked goods, there is an increase in the protein and mineral content of the products. Lactose, a sugar that is present in milk, caramelizes on the surface of baked goods, imparting a rich color, and also necessitating baking precautions similar to those for eggs and granulated sugar. Along with the lactose,the fats present in milk contribute to a soft and even grain in the crumb of baked products. Bakers often replace whole milk in bread formulas with dried milk, largely because the shelf life of dried milk is of course vastly greater than that of fresh milk. Four ounces of dried milk replace 1 quart of whole fresh milk, with the liquid being made up with water.


Page 94, last paragraph:

Italicize the words pâte fermentée


Page 102, Baker’s Notes:

Replace existing sidebar with the following:

Baker’s Notes

Around 1840, Baron August Zang brought the poolish style of bread making to Paris from Vienna. A great deal of flavor was enticed from the bread thanks to the presence of the poolish, and only a small amount of yeast was required, which suited the bakers of the day, who had little access to reliable fresh baker’s yeast. Further, the new breads lacked the acidity that characterized traditional levain-based breads, and this contributed to their popularity. Pain viennois, as the breads were called, became immensely successful, as did viennoiserie—lightly sweetened yeasted goods whose production fell under the domain of the bread baker. Gradually, a complete genre of breads developed that used yeasted pre-ferments in place of, or along with, sourdough, and today we are the fortunate recipients of those advances made almost two centuries ago.


Page 105 Ciabatta with Stiff Biga:

Water in Home column Final Dough should be “1# 3.6 oz (2 ½ cups)”


Pages 113, 115 Country Bread and Rustic Bread:

1. Pre-ferment. Disperse the water, add the flour and SALT.


Page 135, Semolina (Durum) Bread:

Bottom line on the page, first word: Change “mising” to “mixing.”


Page 139, Corn Bread:

Eight total changes:

Under POOLISH in the U.S. column, the correct weight for Yeast is .01 lb, and the correct weight for TOTAL is 10.01 lb


Under POOLISH in the Metric column, the correct weight for Yeast is .005 kg, and the correct weight for TOTAL is 5.005 kg


Under FINAL DOUGH in the U.S. column, the correct weight for the Yeast is .29 lb, and the correct weight for POOLISH is 10.01 lb


Under FINAL DOUGH in the Metric column, the correct weight for the Yeast is .145 kg, and the correct weight for POOLISH is 5.005 kg


Page 156, Vermont Sourdough with Increased Whole Grain

In the Home column, the math is incorrect for the Overall Formula, Liquid Levain Build and for the Final Dough. The correct figures are as follows:



Bread flour            1# 11.2 oz.



Bread flour                                                                                           6.4 oz. (1 1/2 cups)

Water             8 oz. (1 cup)

Mature culture (liquid)            1.3 oz. (3 T)

TOTAL            15.7 oz.



Bread flour                                                                                         1# 4.8 oz. (4 3/4 cups)           

Whole-rye flour                                                                                         4.8 oz. (1 ¼ cups)

Water                                                                                                  12.8 oz. (1 5/8 cups)

Liquid levain                                                                                      14.4 oz. (all less 3 T)

Salt            .6 oz. (1 T)


Page 197, Light Rye Bread:

In the OVERALL FORMULA section, under METRIC, the High Gluten flour should read 8.5 kg (not 8.7 kg)


Page 200, The Detmolder Method of Rye Bread Production:

Middle column, first full paragraph: a period comes after “(60 to 65% hydration)”. Then the rest of the paragraph should read: “The ripening temperature for this phase is 73ºF to 80ºF and ripening time is 15 to 24 hours (lower temperatures require longer ripening times, and higher temperatures require shorter ripening times). During this phase, the acetic acid potential of the sour is developed, which will eventually impart a prominent sour tang to the bread.”


Page 204, Three-Stage 80 Percent Sourdough Rye:

Bottom of page, the Full Sour weights of Final dough should read:

U.S. 14.72 lb

Metric 7.36 kg

Home 1 lb, 7.5 oz


Pages 205 and 207, Three-Stage 80 Percent Sourdough Rye and Three-Stage 70 Percent Sourdough Rye:

Under Freshening, should read “medium rye” and not “whole rye.”


Page 210, 66% Rye Sourdough:

In Sourdough section, change “whole rye flour” to “medium rye flour”


Page 240 and page 292, Challah:

Changes are bold and underlined:


                                    US                        Metric                        Home                                    Baker’s %

Bread flour                        13.4 lb                        6.7 kg                        1# 5.4 oz (4 7/8 cups)                        67%

High-gluten flour            6.6 lb                        3.3 kg                        10.6 oz (2 3/8 cups)                        33%

Sugar                                    1.6 lb                        .8 kg                        2.6 oz (5 T)                                    8%

Yolks                                    1.5 lb                        .75 kg                        2.4 oz (4 yolks)                         7.5%

Whole eggs                        2.8 lb                        1.4 kg                        4.5 oz (2 eggs)                           14%

Vegetable oil                        1.5 lb                        .75 kg                        2.4 oz (5 ½ T)                                     7.5%

Water                                    6.4 lb                        3.2 kg                        10.2 oz (1 ¼ cups)                        32%

Salt                                    .38 lb                        .19 kg                        .6 oz (1 T)                                    1.9%

Yeast                                    .6 lb                        .3 kg                        .32 oz instant dry (2 ¾ tsp)            3%

TOTAL                        34.78 lb            17.39 kg            3 lb, 7 oz                                173.9%



Page 264, Irish Soda Bread:

Changes to the first three ingredients:

                                                U.S                        Metric                        Home                              Baker’s %

Whole-wheat (pastry)* flour            5.63 lb                        2.5 kg                        5.3 oz (1 ¼ cups)            50%

Wheat flakes, ground                        2.82 lb                        1.26 kg            2.6 oz (5/8 cup)            25%

White ** pastry flour                        2.81 lb                        1.25 kg            2.6 oz (5/8 cup)            25%


*add the word “pastry”

**add the word “white’


Page 267, Hot Cross Buns:

Changes to the crossing paste:


Butter, melted                        .25#                        .114 kg            4 oz (1/2 cup)                                   

Milk                                    .19#                        .086 kg            3 oz (3/8 cup)

Vanilla                                    .5 oz                        .014 kg            .5 oz (1 T)

Sugar                                    .25#                        .114 kg            4 oz (1/2 cup)

Lemon peel, grated            1                        1                        1

Egg, large, beaten            ½                        ½                        ½

Flour, sifted                        .5#                        .227 kg            8 oz (1 7/8 cups)


Page 267, in the sidebar eliminate the sentence:

“The crossing paste, which is piped on just before the bake. . .ending with the words. . .as is generally seen in North America.”


In its place, add the following:

“The crossing paste is piped on just before the bake and becomes integrated to the bun itself, unlike the sweet white icing that is generally seen in North America, which is piped on after the buns have cooled.”


Page 268, 6. Crossing Paste:

Eliminate the existing text and put in the following:

While the buns proof, make the crossing paste. In a saucepan, melt the butter with the sugar and heat until the sugar is dissolved. Add the milk, vanilla, grated lemon peel, and beaten egg. Whisk all these together, and then add the sifted flour (cake, pastry, or all-purpose flour all work fine). Using a round tip with a ¼- to 3/8-inch diameter, fill a piping bag with the paste. When the buns are fully proofed (approximately 1 hour), pipe lines in one direction on each of them, transecting the top of each bun. When all the lines have been piped in one direction, rotate the baking sheet 90 degrees and pipe lines again, so that the lines form an even cross (the cross, by the way, is an ancient Celtic representation of the four seasons).


Page 268, 6. Crossing Paste:

The second to last line in that section has a typo: change "thhe" to "the"


Page 282, Aloo Paratha:

After the **Mustard oil note, and before 1. TO MAKE THE DOUGH, insert:

Note: There will be filling left over after making the eight paratha. It makes a flavorful addition to egg dishes, or it can be frozen for future use.


Page 282:

In the middle of the page, in the "Note" section: change "afrozen" to "frozen"


Pages 358, 359, Developing a Liquid Levain Culture:

In the Baker’s % for both DAY TWO. TWO FEEDINGS and DAYS THREE, FOUR, AND FIVE. TWO FEEDINGS, the following change:

Replace 222% with 111%.


Page 395, glossary:

Add: “glutelin  A protein found in certain cereal grains, such as wheat, rye, and barley, as well as in certain grasses, such as corn and rice.”


Page 402, bibliography:

The title of the Roussel and Chiron book should read: Les pains français.


Page 407, Index:

Add: “glutelin, 45, 46”



Corrections to the yeast quantities just for the HOME column in the Miscellaneous Breads chapter to the following:


Page 253, Brioche

.4 oz, instant dry (1 T + 5/8 tsp)


Page 255, Sesame Bread Sticks

.16 oz, instant dry (1 ½ tsp)


Page 256, Grissini

.18 oz, instant dry (1 ¾ tsp)


Page 258, Soft Butter Rolls

.29 oz, instant dry (2 ¾ tsp)


Page 260, Bagels

.14 oz, instant dry (1 3/8 tsp)


Page 262, Bialys

.12 oz, instant dry (1 1/8 tsp)


Page 266, Traditional English Hot Cross Buns


Both read: .22 oz, instant dry (2 tsp)


Page 269, Pretzels

Two changes: OVERALL FORMULA: .14 oz, instant dry (1 3/8 tsp)

FINAL DOUGH: .14 oz, instant dry (scant 1 3/8 tsp)

Page 273, Pizza Dough

Two changes: OVERALL FORMULA: .13 oz, instant dry (1 ¼ tsp)

FINAL DOUGH: .13 oz, instant dry (scant 1 ¼ tsp)


Page 275, Pissaladière

Two changes: OVERALL FORMULA: .09 oz, instant dry (7/8 tsp)

FINAL DOUGH: .09 oz, instant dry (scant 7/8 tsp)


Page 278, Fougasse with Olives

Two changes: OVERALL FORMULA: .1 oz, instant dry (1 tsp)

FINAL DOUGH: .1 oz, instant dry (scant 1 tsp)















BerniePiel's picture


Your loaf looks wonderful.  I, too, made some loaves using KAF's pumpernickle flour and the recipe on the package--dark pumprnickel-onion loaf.  However, I modified it for my sourdough starter and although it tasted great with fine texture, it did not rise as much as yours.   I think I know why but I'm going to make more this week.  But, your loaf looks great.  A question, do I spy onion in the loaf, or no?  I must admit this is the first time I've put onion in any bread and have realized dried onion will be a staple in my pantry for a long time to come.  I wish I could upload a photo but a neighbor wanted my second loaf for a luncheon she was hosting.  Again, Franko, thanks for sharing the pix.


Franko's picture

Thanks Bernie,

I must admit I didn't expect quite the amount of positive comments I've had on this loaf so far.

I realize now that had I docked the bread rather than scoring it, I may have had an even better volume than I did.  David very tactfully indicated in his response to my post that Hamelman's book needs to be read carefully in order to achieve best results. I did a reread and found that for rye breads with 80% or more rye flour, docking is the common practice (P-191). Although on page 23 Hamelman writes that light scoring is indicated with a high proportion of rye flour. It's a judgement call you make at the moment, but next time I'll try docking and see if it helps the volume. There is no onion in this recipe. The dark rye flour I'm using is from a mill here in B.C. Canada called Rogers Flour. It's quite coarse so what you may be seeing is just coarsley milled rye grain along with the fact it had relatively little mixing time.

I've been working on a recipe that uses chives (we have an abundance in our garden) and another flavor component yet to determined and worked into a 50% sour rye that may turn out to be something you'ld be interested in trying when I get it finished.

All the best,


BerniePiel's picture

an interesting ingredient.  I don't think I've heard of that as a bread ingredient before.  Yes, I'd give it a whirl because of their delicate onion type flavor.  I have a fairly large home garden for veggies and another for herbs.  I'm hoping to make a rosemary - quinoa bread and a sage-thyme bread when I return from seeing the grandchildren in about ten days.  Also, I have an extreme abundance of tomatoes so I'm hoping to make a sun-dried tomato bread but I believe all of those are "old hat".  Chives and sage might be worth an experimental loaf, as well.  Thanks, Franko, you've given me some ideas.,

Also, regarding Hamelman, if you do a quick perusal of the errata sheet, you will see that some of the errors were severe, some not so bad.  But it definitely bears a review if you use his text.  He is a very accessible individual and I was sincerely taken by his concern for those who had purchased the Bread. 

Here's a question for you, Franko.  Hamelman and others refer to "high gluten flour".   I've seen thie term used several times in the past three weeks and I'm a bit confused.  Does this mean a product like WholeFoods "vital gluten" or high vital gluten?  Or, does it mean a flour that is relatively high in gluten compared to others, such as, bread flour vs AP vs Cake flour, etc.? 

Thank you, Franko

Franko's picture

Hi Bernie,

Thanks for posting that errata sheet. I've had a copy of one that was posted here previously I'm guessing came from you as well.

WholeFoods is not a product line available in my neck of the woods, but I would imagine it's much like Bob's Red Mill vital gluten. The stuff I use is out of the bulk bin in my local supermarket and has, according to the label on the bin, an 80% gluten content. Tell you the truth I'm not sure if there is a difference between these 'vital gluten' products and high gluten flour. I tend to think it's the same thing with a different name but maybe someone else on the forum would like weigh in on the subject. What I do know is that making a decent high ratio rye without using high gluten flour is difficult if not impossible. 

Enjoy your time with family and all the best,


Franko's picture


After doing a little more searching I found this article that explains the difference between vital gluten and high gluten flour. Link below.


BerniePiel's picture

last two recipes calling for high gluten flour.  I had no idea that high gluten flour is bread machine flour.  I thought it was the vital wheat gluten sold by Whole Foods.  After reading this article, I understand why my potato bread dough immediately turned to rubber and was impossible to knead and strained my KitchenAid Pro.  Again, thanks for the lessons.

Bernie Piel

Franko's picture


Bread machine flour does have a higher gluten content than regular AP but it's still doesn't have a high enough gluten content that you'd want to use it in a high ratio rye bread. I use white bread machine flour anytime it calls for 'white' flour in a formula because it has a higher protein content than regular AP by about 3.3 % and this is closer to the kind of flour that we use in the shop where I work ...but it's not a high gluten flour that you'd use in a med to high ratio rye bread.

I would suggest going to a local health food / natural foods store and ask if they have any high gluten flour or strong flour, rather than vital gluten flour. I'm sure that you could make your own high gluten flour by adding vital gluten to bread machine flour , but right now I don't know what that ratio would be .Or you might try the King Arthur site and see if they have it. I seem to remember seeing it there but it's been a while since I looked so I couldn't guarantee that for sure.