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oo flour and no knead pizza

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bartwin's picture
bartwin

oo flour and no knead pizza

does anyone know the % hydration for a no knead pizza, Lahey's method, using 00 flour instead of bread flour?

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Hi Bart,


Do you have any protein specifications for this flour?  Where did you buy it, and does it have a brand name?  We could look on the internet and find out more, perhaps, if we can at least be more specific about its origin.  I realize that you  want a simple hydration percentage as my answer, but since I really have no idea what the origins are for your 00 flour, or what bread flour you're comparing it to, there is no simple answer. 


Strictly speaking, in Italy the "00" designation refers more to the flour's ash content (bran particles remaining) in the flour than any other important characteristic.  It has no specific protein level officially associated with it, and protein levels are what might be said to be the most important determining factor in how much water a flour will absorb.


I've pasted an excerpt below from a discussion about Italian flour classification at the BBGA e-group.  The author of the post I've excerpted is Marsha DeAngelis, and she and her husband maintain a very informative Italian food blog.  It's address is buried in the excerpt, if you're interested in reading their flour treatise:


"The Flour Treatise, posted on The Artisan at
http://www.theartisan.net/Flour_Suite_Frameset.htm is our effort to
compare flour in Europe with that of North America. As Tom explained
in his earlier message, the classification of flour in Italy as "tipo
00", "tipo 0", "tipo 1", and "tipo 2", refers to the ash content of
the flour. The discussion of ash content included in The Flour
Treatise can be accessed at
http://www.theartisan.net/flour_ash_content.htm . Additionally, my
understanding of the term "grano tenero" is as Tom indicated, common
wheat, as opposed to soft wheat. By way of example, Farine Caputo
maintains a web site at
http://www.molinocaputo.it/ , the contents of
which are available in Italian and English. Perusing the web site
gives you an idea of the variety of grain (Italian, European, and
North American) that is milled and subsequently packaged in a bag that
reads "farina di grano tenero..."


Sorry I can't be more specific.  If you've made the dough before with the bread flour you mention, then try holding back some of the water (maybe 10-15% of it) at first until you're sure you require it.  Or add even more if that seems necessary.  I haven't seen the exact recipe of Lahey's that you refer to, but I seem to recall that his dough's were usually quite wet -- including his pizza dough.


--Dan DiMuzio

bartwin's picture
bartwin

Thanks, Dan, for all of this!   The Italian flour i call "00" is from King Arthur and it's 8.5% protein.  The bread flour i've been using in the pizza recipe is also from King Arthur and is 12.7%.    Yes, Lahey's doughs are quite wet.  They get put in a pan (or on a piece of parchment) and stretched out with fingers - not rolled out which would be impossible.   Rose Levy Berenbaum has a similar process.  The Lahey recipe for pizza with the bread flour calls for 500 grams of flour and 300 of water (plus salt, sugar, yeast).    I was wondering if the same proportions would apply or if i needed more - or less - hydration with the lower protein flour.

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Yeah -- we're still guessing, but at least we have a rationale.


First, maybe we have a different frame of reference, but the 60% hydration (300/500) shouldn't really be wet with KA's Bread Flour.  That wouldn't be wet with their AP flour either, which is 11.7%.  So I'm wondering if your scale might have some sort of malfunction.  Try weighing 4 sticks of butter on your scale and see if it reads correctly.


Anyway, once you're sure the scale is working OK, I'd say that your 8.5% flour is probably a soft-wheat variety, and its absorption should be much lower.  We still have to guess to start out -- I think I'd begin with the flour, salt, and instant yeast in the bowl or whatever, make a well, and add maybe only 250g of water, keeping the remaining 50 grams in a cup nearby in case you need more water.


Start bringing flour in from the sides of the well, using one hand (keep a plastic scraper nearby) and see how well the water gets absorbed as you do so.  Follow your instincts about adding water -- you might make the wrong decision, but that likely won't be disastrous, so think about it as you mix but don't agonize over it.


Once you've decided you have enough water, don't discard the remaining water yet.  Weigh it with your scale first, and then subtract that weight from the 50 grams you started with to figure out how much was used.  Add the weight of extra water used to the 250g you started with and record that total weight of water.  Use this figure the next time you mix this dough with that particular flour.


I hope that helps . . good luck with your pizza, and let us know what the hydration ends up being, OK?


--Dan DiMuzio

bartwin's picture
bartwin

you're right, Dan, that the 60% hydration for this pizza recipe isn't terribly wet.  I was confusing you in referencing Lahey's usual no knead bread recipes made with all purpose flour.  i'm going out of town for a week soon but will give your suggestions a try soon after that.  i appreciate your detailed and timely responses! Many thanks,


Barbara Rice (bartwin)


 

HUGO's picture
HUGO

Folks, i have an invention.  It must be an original as i couldn't find it on the net.


As follows and I will give it in CAPS


1 CUP FLOUR INTO ANY ONE QUT BOWL


1/2 tsp SALT


1/2 TO 1 TSP DRY YEAST


3/4 CUP OF WARM WATER


1 SHEET OF PARCHMENT PAPER


PIZZA PEAL OR FLAT PAN


550 DEGREE PRE HEATED OVEN WITH A STONE.


 


MIX DRY INGREDIENTS WITH A FORK


ADD WARM WATER AND BLEND WITH A FORK


COVER WITH PLASTIC WRAP


WHEN DOUBLE IN SIZE ''SPILL'' ONTO PARCHMENT


DUST TOP WITH FLOUR AND SPREAD WITH FINGER TIPS LITELY TO 12'' LEAVING A SLIGHT RIDGE ON THE EDGES.


TOP WITH SHREDDED ROMANO, THEN DRAINED TOMATO PIECES, MINCED GARLIC, AND FRESH MAZARELLA PIECES.


SPRINKLE WITH FREEZE DRIED ORIGANO OR FRESH BASIL, OR CHOPPED PARSLEY OR EVERYTHING.  WHAT EVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT.


TRANSFER PARCHMENT TO STONE AND BAKE TILL DONE.  ABOUT 8-10 MINUTES.


NOTE:  You can add any toppings you prefer.  HOWEVER DON'T OVER DO IT.


           If you desire extra calories sprinkle with olive oil before baking.


            You may adjust yeast according to your time limits.


            You can keep in fridge covered until you wish to bake. Then pour and fix.


THIS CRUST IS SOFT AND TASTY ALMOST LIKE THE PIZZA IN ''NAPLES''.


 

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

You're using more water than flour, assuming close to 4.5-5oz flour per cup measure.  Basically, you're baking a salted, over-wet poolish.


I'd be curious to see photos of the dough and of the final pizza, if you are able to post them.  Sounds interesting, though I'm pretty sure lots of pizza bakers have experimented with super-wet dough.  At Pepe's in New Haven, CT, the dough is pretty wet.


--Dan DiMuzio

Aroma Cucina's picture
Aroma Cucina

Ciao Ragazzi.


I live most of the year in Umbria so I've very familiar with good ol' Tipo 0 or doppio 00...it grows right outside of town. That's my creds.


Italian grano tenero IS soft wheat, that's what tenero means. It does not come close to absorbing the same amount of water as North American flours. It's an OK, if  you have nothing else in the house, choice for a foccacia or pizza dough, but it doesn't have much body. Funnily, in Italy, for bread, I use an Italian grown Manitoba flour. Iit has a picture of the US flag on the bag which makes it easy to find on the shelf but has no other US characteristics. When I come back to the States I'm easily using 25% more water in the same recipes that I use when I use the Italian manitoba.


I use Tipo 0 for pasta & cakes.


Judith


 

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-italian-style-flour-3-lb


Can you tell us more about the Italian-grown manitoba flour?  My impression has been that they import their "manitoba" flour from Canada, as the name would suggest.


--DD

Aroma Cucina's picture
Aroma Cucina

OH. I'm not in Italy now, so I don't have a bag on hand to see what I can find.


I saw the King Arthur link and I'm confused...are they importing the flour, or growing an Italian varietal?


I have absolutely no back up, scientific proof or anything more than an hunch...but I've seen a difference in something grown here or there, using the same seed. Must have something to do with terroire? :--)

bartwin's picture
bartwin

hello Dan,


Back from LA and i tried the pizza again, but i didn't follow your advice about using my instincts! too bad for me. on the other hand, i learned something.   i set the hydration level at 83% (which equals the 250 grams starting amount you suggested; but you also suggested using my instincts, which i didn't do since i wasn't at all clear about how this dough should feel).   it did not turn well. heavy and tasteless.   this morning i consulted Rose Levy Beranbaum's The Bread Bible. I had used her pizza recipe before and loved it.  I discovered, since i missed it on the previous reads, that she recommends King Arthur's Italian flour OR King Arthur's All Purpose for the recipe. I've always used the all purpose since i didn't have the Italian on hand.  Even though the protein %s are way different (italian at 7.4 and all purpose at 11.7) she does not differentiate between the two in terms of hydration%.  For both, it's 70% (while for Lahey's bread flour pizza it's 60% -humm).   In her method, you mix the dough, let it sit for half an hour or more at room temp and then put it in the frig for up to 24 hours, then bring it to room temp for about an hour before baking.  (Lahey's method is just to make the dough and let it sit at room temp for 2 hours before baking.)


I don't understand the logic of all this, but i'm going to try Rose's recipe again with Italian flour and see how that works.  will report back.


Thanks again, Dan, for your previous advice. It would be nice if this information is helpful to you  - at least to add to your extensive knowledge base.


Barbara

Elia's picture
Elia

Hello amici,


my name'Elia, I'm a 40 years experienced Italian pizzachef and I would like to share with you some of my hints about your doubts in making pizza. All the followings are an extract of my book about pizza now ready in italian and I hope to translate it into english hopfully ready towards the end of next March (2011).


First of all, please, don't let you misdirect by the italian 00 label definition: it refears only to the refinement of the wheat flour...which has nothing to do with the strength of the gluten (which is the crucial point for a great pizza making).


And, coming to the strength of gluten, italian law about flour, settlled a coefficient expressed in "W" which refears only to gliadin and glutenin, the 2 unsoluble proteins which composent the gluten.


For the record, a W=180 to 220  refears to a weak flour and its ok only for a short fermentation time.


Whilst, a 300+ W refears to a strong flour able to last 24 or more hours for fermentation and therefore for maturation.


The misdirection about all this, is that italian manufactors of flour are not required of putting the "W" coefficient into their bag label: ( only, if you are aware, they will tell it to you.)


In this way, many italian pizzachefs ignore the rule... and that's why so much poor pizza quality even in Italy: for the record: I questioned a recent napolitan "pizzachef of the year" in London about which "W" was his usual used flour and...(would you believe me?) he looked at me as I had said a foreign word).


That's the reason why my project to write a book which will fill the gap in this field, either in italian, english and french.(again, hopping towards the end of March 2011).


Having settled this, I know, many of you would like a receipe: ok, during the next days, I will publish my preferred "focaccia al rosmarino" making at home receipe.


Ciao.

madruby's picture
madruby

Thanks Elia for that explanation.  Very interesting.  Here I am, all proud and glorified about finding the Italian type 00 flour to make my pizza dough.  After reading your post, I now undertsand that using the Italian type 00 flour will not necessarily yield the result that I want since I do not know what the "W" is (nor does the brand indicate the % of protein).  If I understand your explanation correctly, there is certain type 00 that will allow for a short fermentation while another will let you rest your dough for an overnight fermentation.  Since I did not know that, I simply mixed my ingredients then threw the dough in the fridge for at least 24 hours.  Because I do not know the W coefficient, I guess I'll have to assume that the flour 00 I bought could only go for the short fermentation.


I actually bought that type of flour cuz I have been reading all over the net that this IS the flour used by many "experts, chefs, bakers..." or Italians to make the pizza dough as it is more flexible, malleable and stretchable.  I unfortunately may have been misuing it and as a result, have had poor results with it and end up tearing my pizza dough every time.


I still don't understand what is the fuss about using this type 00 flour as so many swear by it....does it really give a better pizza dough than perhaps the AP or bread flour - I need to ask the question since I cannot tell from my own experience.


Elia, do you have a good pizza dough recipe that you could share with all of us.  Thanks again for your contribution.


 

Elia's picture
Elia

Here I am again, very sorry for not having kept my previous promise to share with you a great no need focaccia.


Let me say first, dear Madruby, you are right: the italian 00 doesn't assure the strength of the gluten so, if I were you I would whatch out the containt ingredients label of the supermarket flour: if it says "protein 12+ (or strong flour)you can be sure it will make. Personally living in London I recently found a canadian great flour which contains 15% of protein.


Ok let go through my promised recipe. The following concernes to either white or wholemeal focaccia; the only difference consisting in using white or brown flour, as you can see in the included pictures.


BUT AT FIRST I'LL  TELL YOU MY SECRET FOR A LIGHT EITHER FOCACCIA OR HOMEMADE PIZZA IS A DOUBLE FERMENTATION.


INGREDIENTS FOR ABOUT 1300 GRAMS OF DOUGH OR THREE 400 GRAMS FOCACCIA:


-1/2 A LITER OF LACK WARM WATER


-800 GRAMS OF STRONG WHITE OR HALF & HALF WHITE AND BROWN STRONG FLOUR.


-4 GRAMS OF DRIED YEAST


-25 to 30 GRAMS OF SALT


-EXTRAVIRGIN OLIVE OIL


-ROSMARY OR TOSTED SESAME SEEDS.


The ideal time to make this dough is the moment before going to bed.


Pour the lightly warm water into a glass container or a steel pan(avoid to use any alluminium ones).


 


Let dissolve the dried yeast and then pour the flour in a reiny way in order to incorporate some oxigen into the dough: In this way you will help the yeast bacteria to grow well.


-finally put your salt.


Now you are ready: using a spoon all you have to do is to mix all the ingredients together. When done (don't worry about any lumps as they will disappear after fermentation) cover it either with a cling film or a lid, leave it in a warm place and go to bed.(figure 1)


The following morning (eight o' clock?)you will realise your dough has doubled its volume(figure 2): its a good sign: So, dust your working table with flour and toss your dough in there.


By dusting your hands as well, take an external piece of the edge, bring it towards the center and press well. Turn it clockwise and do the same with another piece...and so on till your dough becomes a sort of ball. Now turn it upside down and you are ready( figure 3): divide it into three parts and put 2 of them in a plastic bag and refrigerate them for later, while the third one will be turned into a great focaccia:


To do so, pour some olive oil into a round 10 or 12 inches pan and place your dough ball(any joint down) at its center; Using the tips of your fingers dive into the dough in order to make some sort of holes and pour some oil in it. Continue pressing and, doing that, you will realise it begins to spread (figure 4). Doing so you will realise it reaches the edges of the pan...good: sprinkle the top with some rosmary or tosted sesame seeds, leave it in a cool place and...go doing your shopping...or your housework...(figure 5)


At 12 or one o'clock your focaccia will have doubled again its size(figure 6): GREAT. Its time to turn on your oven to high temperature ( 240 at least) and place your focaccia to be cooked. Please, for the first 10 minutes avoid to open your oven or your dough could collaps.


After 10 minutes lower the temperature (say 200 degrees) and go on for about another 10 minutes or so, till the top is well coloured.


If you poured enough oil at the base you will not have to strive in taking off your focaccia out of the pan.


Place it raised from the work place between 2 objects or a rack or your focaccia could wet it self with its steam(figure 7- 8- 9). (it will be great if I manage to download my nine pictures to show you every step of the above description)


Hopping so I will now stop: please, could you tell me the result of this recipe?


Within a couple of days I will tell you the following by doing a great pizza with your 2 parts of dough left in your fridge.


By the way: this is a quick translation  of my next appearing book in italian...hopping to manage to translate it into the Shakespeare's language.


Ciao a tutti.


PS: god, where is the download button? could anyone help me?

rjerden's picture
rjerden

It's all about extensibility, which Italian flours have in spades, not due to the flour strength, but because of their process of milling the wheat. Italian flours used for pizza are typically low extraction (using only the endosperm). In addition, the grain is tempered (soaked) much longer before it is milled. Then, it is milled slowly and gently, so as not to damage the starch and protein. The result is a a dough that can be stretched very thin (windowpane), yet rises very well in a hot oven. It's a real pleasure to work Italian dough. Typically, it doesn't require a very high hydration to give good results for pizza. I also use it for breadmaking, where it's almost the only flour that will work well for certain difficult breads, like rosette soffiate. Can't beat it for grissini, either. Try the Caputo 00 Pizza Chef (in the 1 kg red package).


Cheers,


Roy