The Fresh Loaf

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Baguette surprise and a challenge.

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Baguette surprise and a challenge.

Hi,


I baked the second best tasting baguettes ever tonight, to my surprise. I would like to invite other baguette questing members to test my hypothesis as to why they are so good tasting.


This afternoon, I had the urge to have fresh baked baguettes with dinner. I've been out of town and very busy since returning. My starter needed feeding. I hadn't made a poolish or pâte fermentée. I was stuck with making a straight dough baguette that could be ready to eat in 4-5 hours.


I looked at the formulas in several books and decided to use Leader's formula as a basis, but with a different mixing approach, slightly higher hydration and different flours. Here's what I did:


Ingredients


Giusto's Baker's Choice flour 450 gms


KAF White Whole Wheat flour 50 gms


Water 350 gms


Sea salt 10 gms


Instant yeast 4 gms


Method


1. Mix all ingredients in a large bowl until the flour is hydrated.


2. Let rest, covered, for 20 minutes.


3. Stretch and fold in the bowl for 30 strokes. Repeat 2 more times at 20 minute intervals.


4. Transfer dough to an 8 cup glass measuring cup, cover tightly.


5. Stretch and fold once at 45 minutes.


6. Proof until 1.5 times the original volume (another 45 minutes).


7. Divide dough into 3 equal pieces, pre-shape as rounds and rest, covered with plasti-crap, for 10 minutes.


8. Shape into baguettes and proof on a linen couche until 1.5 times their original size.


9. Bake on a pizza stone at 460F with steam for 20 minutes.


10. Turn off oven but leave the loaves on the baking stone for another 5 minutes with the oven door ajar.


11. Cool and eat.


The crust was nice and crunchy. The crumb was not real open. But there was absolutely no smell of yeast, just a  wonderful, wheaty aroma. The flavor was delicious! Not the sweet flavor I look for in baguettes with longer fermentation. There was no recognizable flavor of whole wheat, just a deeper, more complex flavor than I generally get with an all white flour bread.


Why was it so tasty? The only thing I can think of is the flour mix I used. I would love for some one else to try this combination and let me know if they get extraordinary results. I will be trying this again myself, of course.


Oh. What was the best tasting baguette I've made? Gosselin's "original" formula (not Reinhart's revision). But this involves an overnight cold retardation and secondary mixing of added ingredients afterwards. Not a 4-hour project.


Any takers?


David

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Hi David,


And thanks for posting your baguette surprise! I've never made a baguette dough without a preferment (usually poolish), and I find your recent experience most interesting to read. Coincidentally, just yesterday I read an article by Thom Leonard titled "Preferments: Are they over-rated?".


Some of his introductory remarks are truly spot-on compared to your situation:



I won't argue that a good baker can't make great bread by utilizing yeast preferments or levain. Indeed, I believe these are essential tools to have in your box. What I will argue is that a skilled baker can bake equally good bread using methode directe - as with preferments - and that an understanding of how to make good breads with straight dough is an equally valuable tool to carry. There are times when it is essential to be able to convert a bread you normally make with poolish or biga to straight dough.



I also think you've nailed the most important steps in making a great straight dough given by Thom Leonard - a very low amount of yeast, a quite high level of hydration and - perhaps most importantly - a very short mix with folds to strengthen the dough. Leonard also posted a nice straight dough formula in the article, suitable for baguettes, but I haven't had the chance to try it out yet. I think you'll enjoy the article David, especially now that you've so successfully pulled off a great straight dough yourself!


There's a wealth of material about the Gosselin vs. Reinhart baguettes around here, and since I'm not the most avid baguette baker, I don't know all the details, but I have a (stupid) question about the two methods. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the difference between the two methods is that Reinhart mixes the entire dough together (including yeast and salt, using cold water) and puts this in the fridge overnight, while Gosselin employs an overnight cold autolyse - only adding yeast and salt the following day. I would think that, for the homebaker, these two methods would be as good as identical? I can understand that Gosselin avoids yeast and salt in his first mix, because he's mixing up a huge dough, and it will take significant time to chill the dough in the retarder. If yeast was added at this stage, it would have an unwanted wide window of time to produce gas and affect the dough - that's why Gosselin's holding the yeast back. For the homebaker, this "volume" factor isn't important, since we're usually mixing up small batches; complement that with cold water and putting the mixed dough straight into the fridge, and I would guess that the added yeast wouldn't introduce any unwanted effects? For the homebaker, I would think that the two methods should produce identical loaves/baguettes?


Again, I'm not very well versed in the philosophy behind the Gosselin and Reinhart variants, so it could very well be that I'm missing out on something here?


Anyways, sorry to ramble - great to read about your positive experience David! The bottom line seems to be that one shouldn't balk at well-mixed straight doughs :)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for your very thoughtful remarks. I'll be interested to read Leonard's article. As indicated, I was greatly surprised by what good results I got with a method I had regarded as compromising quality in the interest of time/economy.


Your point about the low percentage of yeast is very well taken. When I've made straight dough baguettes before, with just a little more yeast than this, I've gotten a yeasty flavor. Isn't it amazing how big a difference such a small change in yeast  (or water!) can make in the product?


I'll have to think about your questions regarding Gosselin's method versus Reinhart's modification. At this point, I can only say I got much more pleasing results with the original. However, in between the two, I had been seriously working on my baguettes, and I suspect I would be more successful with Reinhart's formula now.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,


I'm inspired to hear of your success with a short production time direct dough. I don't have access to the Giusto's flour, I will take a stab at your method. After reading you post and Hansjoakim's reply, it seems I may have missed something important.


Thanks guys for the wake up.


Eric

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

David,


I, too, will try your challenge.  I need to swing by GFS to pick up another bag of Guisto's anyway, so this will give me an excuse.  It may take me a week or so to get around to trying the recipe, though, as I have to bake Cinnamon Raisin Bread for the Facebook Artisan Bread Group bake, and PR's Anadama Bread for the BBA Challenge.


Phyl

LindyD's picture
LindyD

I don't have access to Giusto's either, but Thom Leonard notes in the SFBI article (thanks, Hans!) that he's had good results with flour of 11% protein and with nearly 12% protein.


I'd love to give it a try, maybe on Saturday.

proth5's picture
proth5

I've been so commited to "sourdough" baking as of late, I have neglected the joys of commercial yeast.  I've just been doing flatbreads if I have a short timeline, but recently I've been tempted to return to my old friend commercial yeast.


After reading Mr Leonard's article and thinking about straight doughs in general, I don't think we've become too enamored with the pre ferment (after all, at the end of the article we are told that not one bread that Mr Leonard usually sells is made without a preferment) but I remember making delicious lean straight dough breads during my "hippie years" by doing exactly what you did - blending in some whole wheat flour or bran or wheat germ.  Of course, what we now call "retarded fermentation" was marketed  back in the 60's and 70's by the Fleishmans yeast company as the "Cool-Rise" method, so everything old is new again.


I think what you experienced with the addition of the white whole wheat flour might be akin to what I experienced when I used the "white flour with brown specks in it" of my own hand milled - a little higher ash, a little more bran - a little more flavor no matter what method you use.  I have also found that even with a yeasted liquid pre ferment and "someone else's" formula for a poolish baguette, there is a benefit to reducing the yeast in the final dough.


I am involved in some serious traveling myself right now so even a straight dough is beyond me, but I think I wil give a variant on this a try when I finaly get home.  I have some extra high extraction flour waiting for an application.  It will be awhile, but I'll let you know.


Happy Baking!


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Having now read the Thom Leonard article that hansjoakim referenced, I think I validated his thesis. Moreover, the aspects of my baguettes that were less satisfying were made clear by Leonard's description of how straight doughs need to be handled. i see a number of opportunities to improve my results.


I will do a true autolyse next time and add the salt and yeast later.


I will bulk ferment the dough a bit longer.


I will pre-shape and shape the loaves more gently. 


I will proof the loaves a bit more. (I have been intentionally under-proofing my baguettes to get better oven spring. In this instance I over-did the under-proofing. Two of my three loaves actually burst, which I almost never experience with baguettes.)


One more surprise: Straight dough lean breads tend to stale very quickly. This morning, the half baguette I saved for my breakfast still had a moist feel to the cut edge. I refreshed it in the oven (7 minutes at 375F) and it was like fresh baked - crunchy crust and moist crumb. The aroma was still completely free of yeastiness. It was lovely. 


David

proth5's picture
proth5

What you may wish to consider is that Mr Leonard is using an "improved mix" which calls for a spiral - or at least a mechanical - mixer.


With the "fold in the bowl" technique, you may find that getting the salt/yeast incorporated may be a bit of a problem.  I have discussed this with someone who really ought to know (because we were discussing what I thought was some kind of mental lapse in putting the salt/yeast in with the rest of the ingredients when using this method) and was assured that using this very gentle mixing method, indeed the salt/yeast needs to be put in at the very beginning.


I'm interested to see how this works for you and if there are issues around getting the salt  and yeast into the dough after a true autolyse.


The longer fermentation will, of course, be key (as I, and others keep saying).


I've been running my own little experiments around pre shaping and shaping more gently than usual and in my hands, I see only a very small difference.  Although people have pointed out that my "usual" shaping technique fairly gentle - although I'll ruthlessly flatten a fermentation bubble if it ruins any symetry.


The staling should have been expected as one of the basic benefits of the pre ferment is keeping quality...


Happy Baking!

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

Hi David,


I feel like I've been on a baguette challenge ever since I found TFL. I've tried them all, and I particularly like the Gosselin and the Anis baguettes. In fact, given the time, I would always choose something with a preferment and cold retardation because of the wonderful flavor.


That said, I've been experimenting for the past week and a half with almost the same recipe you've given here. I developed it from the basic recipe in the The Best Bread Ever which was loaned to me by a friend when I mentioned that I was experimenting with baguette recipes. Charles Van Over, the author, was hired by Cuisinart, my friend told me, to create a good loaf in their machine. He calls his recipe The Best Bread Ever, and bless his heart, it is not, but it is certainly better than many of the recipes that we used to use for poor French bread. It was crunchy on the outside and had good oven spring but lacked the inside texture and layers of flavor I was used to. I raised the hydration levels, added an autolyse (granted, not a true autolyse, because it had yeast added), and added a retardation period. I've been trying to develop an easy recipe to teach to a class of non-bakers, and I thought that the food processor approach with later stretch and folds would avoid some of the pitfalls of beginning bakers.


I baked the recipe yesterday, before your post, but I didn't use Giusto's flour. I don't have access to that. I used Bob's Red Mill bread flour; my recipe calls for 345 g water. I rolled the loaves in sesame seeds before I baked them.The bread came out beautiful, with a huge oven spring. I also left them in the oven for 10 minutes as you indicated. (I've learned a lot from you! Thank you!) They came out just a little dry right inside the crust. I think that the addition of just a little more water (the 5 g) may cure that, especially with the doughs with ww added; I haven't had a problem with dryness with the 100% white flours. (I must apologize at this point. I have many photos to share but am a technical idiot. I'm still working on learning to post them.)


In the last two weeks, I've baked many 100% bread flour loaves and many AP loaves with various brands of flour. They all came out well, save for the fact that I have only had one real scoring success with a baguette. The loaves kept bursting. Ahha!  You mention oven spring and letting the dough ferment longer at each stage. Well, the recipe that I started with in the olden days of two weeks ago was Hamelman's French bread. He calls for twice as long a rise (or more) at each step than you and I were doing. First ferment-2 1/2 -3 hours. Proofing-1 1/2-2 hours at 76 degrees.  I imagine that I doubted the master and always held back on the proofing resulting in the problems that I had with the scoring breaking out. Then I forgot that he had called for the longer proofing and kept repeating the mistake, thinking that it was my scoring technique, which I don't seem to be able to really nail on the baguettes.


I also retain the original steaming method from The Best Bread Ever, which is to pre-steam with a cup of warm water in a steam pan then add another cup 2 minutes later, after the bread goes into the oven.


At any rate, I have three batches of my 345 grams of water recipe with 100% 365 Baking Flour in the refrigerator. They will have had an 11 hour retardation when I start my little class this morning. I just went in and made your recipe as written, but with the 365 flour and KA white whole wheat. Unfortunately, I didn't remember to keep the yeast out of the autolyse, but I am giving it a 45-minute "autolyse" before I go on with the recipe.I'm going to go easy on the shaping and increase the fermentation times, too.


I'll let you know how it turns out.


Patricia


 

DonD's picture
DonD

Regarding hansjoakim comment about the interchangeability between the Gosselin and the Reinhart method for the home baker, based on my experience with the two methods, the Gosselin baguettes are always sweeter tasting. My guess is that the cold and prolongue autolyse produces more sugar before the yeast is added which after fermentation leaves a good amount of residual sugar whereas with the one step mixing by Reinhart, the salt hinders the autolyse process and the yeast would have a jump on the fermentation of sugar, therefore reducing the amount of residual sugar.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Pat - I have added yeast and salt after the autolyse when using the stretch and fold in the bowl technique many times before. It's not that hard with a 70% hydration dough. The gluten tightens up dramatically when the salt is added, as expected.


Patricia - I'm interested in hearing how your latest baguettes turn out.


Don - I use instant yeast. My assumption is that it doesn't really activate much during a 20 minute autolyse. My experience with the (original) Gosselin formula is that it produces the sweetest tasting baguettes I've ever made. The mixing of additional water into the dough after retardation has been the hardest step in making this formula. I don't think I could do it without a stand mixer.


David

proth5's picture
proth5

Cool.  Just goes to show ya that there is always something to learn.  Since I'm nearly always working with a liquid levain as of late, leaving out the yeast is never an option, but I might want to try leaving out the salt in a batch for a real autolyse and see what happens.


I might go single factor on this and see if I find it makes a difference.


When I finally get home to bake, that is...


Pat

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

I was disappointed to have to put the dough in the refrigerator because we just ran out of time to bake it. I did add the yeast and salt after the autolyse, and didn't get it thoroughly mixed in, evidently, because the dough oozed some liquid and separated into layers. Looked bad, but I kneaded it for awhile, and now the dough looks great this morning. Blistered.


I'll try it again this weekend. You've started a very interesting discussion here! Back on the search for great baguettes.


Patricia

ehanner's picture
ehanner


What better time to attempt this formula than when I'm stressed for time. Normally I would have skipped trying to bake today. I had little time and the family was trying to move furniture to accommodate the children. I figured I would make these direct method baguettes as a late snack for the moving crew.


I'll do this again at another time using white WW or with rye. I decided to use the fresh ground WW I have been using recently for the 10% WW component. You can see the flecks in the crust and crumb.


I was surprised at how crunchy the crust was. Not thick at all but with a very nice crunch that wasn't hard to eat. The crumb was somewhat open and as David said, not a hint of yeast flavor. The overall flavor is good but not wonderful to be truthful. This will not replace my prefermented French bread but it is nice to remember that I can make a passable loaf in a few hours.


David mentioned that he wonders if the choice of flours make this so flavorful. It would be interesting to see the results by someone who can make a comparison,


The artical by Leonard mentioned above was interesting. He points out that the preferment shortens up the floor time, which has a big impact on floor time efficiency.


Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I will make this bread again in order to see if my results are reporducible and to try a few tweaks to the method. I don't expect this to ever become my baguette of choice, but, as you also found and as Leonard said in his SFBI piece, it's nice to have a good bread that can be made in 4 hours in your repetoire.


I bought a 5 lb bag of KAF White Whole Wheat mostly out of curiosity. I have not yet used it in a 100% whole wheat loaf, but I have used it in several recipes where I usually add 10% rye, whole wheat or a combination in a 90% white flour recipe. So far, the white whole wheat flour's effect is more like that of rye than that of "traditional" red wheat. That is, it enhances the flavor without introducing a distinctive flavor of its own. I wonder how much of this is just the high mineral contect of the whole wheat. In any case, I have really liked what it does.


In my mind, I keep returning to the discussions of French versus American flours and the allegedly superior flavor of organic stone-ground French flours. I wonder if the white whole wheat is adding back something missing from American AP and Bread flour that is there in French T65.


David

breadbakingbassplayer's picture
breadbakingbass...

I have made Anis Bouabsa's baguettes without the refrigeration.  This is straight dough without preferments, etc.  I typically use 95% AP flour, 3% Whole Wheat, 2% Rye flour blend, along with 2% salt, 75% hydration, and have adjusted the yeast for a 24 hour rise on my counter top.  It ended up being 0.01% active dry yeast.  For 3600g of dough, I think I used about 1/16th tsp of yeast.  I like using Hecker's AP flour, but any unbleached, unbrominated will do.   This method has yeilded pretty darn good tasting bread...


I am currently working on a simlar dough using the same flour mix, but using refrigeration...


Doing straight doughs with this method make the bread taste sweeter to me...  Not sure if I have anything else to add, or any other insight though...

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

Interesting idea. I bet you're right. Isn't white whole wheat a high extraction flour?


I really like baking with KA white whole wheat, and have used it instead of ww in many recipes. It acts almost like white bread flour but with more flavor. Trader Joe's is now carrying a white ww that works well, too. Who knows who's producing it. A friend who works in the store says that they get their stuff from the name brand people. Our artisanal baker here in town makes loaves for Trader Joe's, and they're half the price if you buy them in the store.


Patricia

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Yeah, what is white whole wheat exactly? Is it somewhere between bread flour and "ordinary" whole wheat in terms of extraction (e.g. around 80-85% extraction flour)? Do you know what the typical ash content of white whole wheat is?


It's a pretty bizarre thing - Hamelman et al. have converted many European bread recipes to American flour equivalents; the problem for us Euro-people is to figure out what the original flours were... ;)

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Hans, white whole wheat is just an albino type of wheat berry. It is 100% whole wheat, that has a somewhat sweeter flavor than red wheat berries.


Here is an FAQ on it:


http://www.wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/whole-white-wheat-faq


--Pamela

xaipete's picture
xaipete

From what I understand about white whole wheat, it is not a high extraction flour. Rather, it is just a pale colored wheat berry as opposed to the red that is used in regular whole wheat flour. It is supposed to have a milder flavor and be more acceptable to white bread eaters.


--Pamela

SteveB's picture
SteveB

How can a whole wheat flour be anything but high extraction?


SteveB


http://www.breadcetera.com


 

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Hi Steve. What I was saying was that white whole wheat flour was not a high extraction flour. I was thinking of high extraction flour as highly sifted red whole wheat flour. White whole wheat flour is just flour ground from an albino type wheat berry. I didn't think what is labeled in the store as "white whole wheat" was highly sifted. But perhaps I don't understand. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


--Pamela

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

means that much of the kernel is included in the final flour.  Whole wheat flour, regardless of the original wheat's color, is 100% flour.  The more of the bran and germ that is bolted or sifted out of the whole wheat flour, the lower the flour's extraction rate.


The concept is that the more pounds or kilos of flour (endosperm, germ, bran included) you get out of the pounds or kilos of raw grain you start with, the higher your extraction rate.


There have been a number of posts that discuss the various extraction rates much better than I can do.  You'll probably want to search for those to get the whole story.


Paul

xaipete's picture
xaipete

The baguettes look delicious, Eric. The flecks look especially appetizing. I love the photograph too--really displays the holes nicely.


I'm going to have to try this now.


--Pamela

LindyD's picture
LindyD


White wheat, in fact, usually has a “higher extraction rate” than red wheat – meaning that a bushel of white wheat kernels will make slightly more whole wheat flour than the same amount of red wheat. This also helps ensure that the white wheat supply will be adequate.


xaipete's picture
xaipete

Is that what we are taking about when we speak of high-extraction flour? If so, then I completely misunderstand the term "high-extraction flour". I thought high-extraction flour was whole wheat flour that had a high degree of bran, etc. sifted out of it.


In order words, high extraction rate does not equal high extraction flour. But that is just the way I understand it. Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.


--Pamela

LindyD's picture
LindyD

You were on the right road, just going in the wrong direction.

xaipete's picture
xaipete

So we agree that high-extraction flour is whole wheat flour that has been sifted to remove most of its bran and some of its germ?


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The extraction rate, expressed in percentage, is defined as the percent by weight of the whole wheat berry that is left after some portion is removed by the milling process (including sifting/bolting). Thus, "whole wheat" which includes the entire wheat berry is "100% extraction." At the opposite end of the extraction spectrum is "patent flour" which has had all the germ, all the bran and the outer portion of the endosperm removed.


"High extraction" flour generally has some portion of the germ and bran removed but some left in the flour. I don't know that there is a more precise definition than this.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

So high extraction is not 100% extraction. That's the way I understood it.


 


WW flour -----high extraction flour----------------------------------patent flour


 


--Pamela

SteveB's picture
SteveB

There is no one single flour designated as "high extraction" flour.  There is a range of flours that fit within this designation.  Whole wheat flour is at the uppermost end of this range, while flour at ~75% extraction is at the lowermost end.


SteveB


http://www.breadcetera.com


  

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I tried to express that by my little line graph below. I put paten flour at the lowermost end and whole wheat flour at the uppermost. Does that work?


--Pamela

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Hi David. I took the challenge and made your baguettes today. Everything went exactly as you described in your recipe/method. Thanks to you we are going to have some nice crunchy bread tonight. I agree that the flavor isn't buttery, but there is no hint of yeast and its flavor is far better than anything you could buy.


I used 50 grams of sifted whole wheat flour instead of white whole wheat.


Thanks for posting.


Surprise Baguettes


Surprise Baguettes


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Another update on my batch: I froze two of the three baguettes I had made earlier in the week. We had company for dinner tonight - an old teacher/colleague/dear friend who was in town for a few days. I served only 3 kinds of bread with dinner - Susan's Original Sourdough, Cherry Pecan Levain and one of the previously frozen baguettes.


I thawed it at room temperature then refreshed it in a 375F oven for 7 minutes. It was like fresh-baked. So, these freeze well too.


As I said before, I may not make these baguettes often, but they are certainly worth keeping in my active repertoire.


I'm happy they worked for you.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

What did you have for a main course?


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Appetisers


Hummus


Olives


Taboule


Chevre


 


Entrée


Roasted halibut with sautéd leek and fennel


Roasted asperagus


 


Dessert


Fresh strawberries with lemon-crystalized ginger icebox cookies


 


Wine


2007 Navarro Reisling (dry, Alsatian-style)


David


 

xaipete's picture
xaipete

There's nothing there that I don't like!


--Pamela

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

And I especially like Navarro white wines. We visited the winery last summer and bought some of their wine-grape juice along with a couple of other wines, one of which was the Edelsvicker (sp?). Both the wines and the juices are delicious, and it's lovely to be able to offer non-imbibers something as wonderful as the wine drinkers are guzzling.


I made the bread recipe today, both with a non-yeasted and non-salted autolyse and with. They both came out great, as Pamela said, better than good local French bread. I will try to get photos online tomorrow. Still struggling with that due to non-technical nature of self.


Patricia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Patricia.


Navarro does make many delicious wine. Actually, I've not had a wine from them I didn't think was especially good. And their prices are very reasonable for the quality.


Looking forward to seeing your photos.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Thanks David, Nice forum-write up and posts and some wonderful displays of baguettes!  Super nice Menu too!


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

I'll make them tomorrow. The baguettes shown here look very nice. I'd like to see photos of yours, David. By the way, David, you might want to check the misspelling in the No.7 sentence :o) Or maybe you meant it to be.


 


This is a great thread with lots of info. Thanks David for starting it and thanks to all the others for their input.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, weavershouse.


It's true. Spelling is not my greatest talent, but there are no inadvertent misspellings in the sentence you referenced. Yes, there is a bit of idiosyncratic terminology. I assure you, however, it was quite intentional, being a sincere expression of the low regard I have for the product in question.


Here's a photo of mine. I didn't take a crumb shot.



David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I wish I could score like that. Hopefully someday!


--Pamela

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

I baked my BBA Challenge Anadama bread last night, and I needed something to do today, so I have a batch of baguettes going right now.  I am nearing the end of the bulk ferment, so I will have fresh baguettes within a few hours, and I'll report on the outcome then.

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I was just wondering if anyone has tried the 'New K.A. Organic White Wheat'?  It is a nice blend of the hard white winter and spring wheats.  I used it when I posted a pan loaf of Oatmeal bread.  It's very nice and I really prefer it to the regular K.A. White Wheat.  I like using it in scones ect.  they have reduced the price on it.  Sorry, that was a 5 grain bread I posted not an oatmeal.


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sylvia. 


I haven't tried that flour, but you make it sound very interesting. Does it have lower protein than the regular White Wheat flour?


I'll look into it.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I think it's 14% if not 13.2%...if you go to the K.A. site look under professional flours and it gives the specifications on the regular white whole wheat.  I have to go look, sorry!  Yes, 14%


Sylvia

xaipete's picture
xaipete

That might be worth the extra money. I'll check it out; thanks for the post.


--Pamela

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I haven't been buying any of KA's organic flours because of their cost. I think most of them are running $9.75 in markets around here for 5 pounds and that just seems insane.


--Pamela

Stephanie Brim's picture
Stephanie Brim

Find no problem with it. I'll occasionally buy the organic varieties if I can find them on sale, but I generally stick to the normal flours.


The 7 grain flour I buy locally, though, is certified organic.


I guess you could call me an equal opportunity baker. :D

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

My local Albertson's has been having a sale on the all the K.A. and G.M., but not the K.A. Bread flour...some very good buys.


Sylvia

Stephanie Brim's picture
Stephanie Brim

*headdesk* I'm doing that a lot lately.


They were good, but I still prefer working with a retarded fermentation of some sort, whether that be a reduced yeast amount or a refrigeration.


I'm going to try again, though, and add some rye to the mix to see if I like that better.


One interesting thing I did was that I added 100g of cake flour plus 350g of KA AP since I didn't have the Giusto's to see what difference it would make. Couldn't really tell. Gonna skip that next time and just go with all AP.

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Since I had a new package of KA all purpose and had never used that flour before, that was my choice for flour since it fell within the protein level noted in the Leonard article.  And it's been said lots of bakers use it for bread.  


I mixed the flour and water, then did a 20-minute autolyse before adding the salt and yeast.


The dough was so strong I was unable to do all 30 of the final strokes of stretch and fold.


I followed the rest of the instructions precisely - I think this batch could be made into four skinnier baguettes, but I stuck with three since that's all I can fit on my stone.


These are probably the lightest colored crusts I've baked in six months.  I think mine should have gone five or ten minutes longer.



(The squished bread in the unimpressive crumb shot is upside down)


The bread tasted like - well, nothing.   Rye or whole wheat definitely needs to be added - or a levain.  


The ancienne baguettes are a hundred times better than this bread, but all is not lost since the first baguette has been sliced and is staling.   Will make nice French toast tomorrow.


I think I'll save the KA AP for cookies and such.  Now.. off to mix up a batch of bagels for tomorrow.


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Lindy.


10% or so white whole wheat or rye or a combination makes a world of difference in the flavor of breads made with AP or bread flour. Try it with your next baguettes.


But, I think you will always get a better product using levain or a pre-ferment.


David

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Hi David,


I pretty much stick with Hamelman's recipes, so this was the first time I've baked a bread without a preferment or adding rye.  My curiosity about using only AP flour has been satisfied, although my taste buds certainly weren't.   In all fairness to the KAF AP, it did make fabulous chocolate chip cookies using the latest Cook's Illustrated recipe.

If I do try this formula again, I’ll definitely add either rye, organic WW, or WWW (if I can find the latter locally).  I would also increase the hydration to maybe 73 percent and since I was really fighting the dough during the last set of bowl-folds, I'm not sure if I would go for the total 30 strokes.  Would depend on the dough.

I am curious if during your development of this recipe, you used less than the 30 strokes every 20 minutes and if so, did you find any marked difference in the crumb?


The technique reminded me of Hamelman's six-fold French bread.

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Here is my try at these baguettes. I made a double batch yesterday and today with the same results. Not very pretty but very tasty. The crust was not crisp but more tender, maybe because I didn't leave them in the oven for the 5 min. with the oven off. The crust was also kind of dull. The crumb was very soft, moist and had very good flavor. I like the white whole wheat taste in these. As you can probably see, I made 3 baguettes and 2 medium batons. Where the parchment couche stuck to the sides of the baking loaves it did not brown which I never had happen before. By the time they baked enough to pull the parchment off it was too late and they didn't get colored like the tops. David, you're right about this bread staying soft. Yesterdays leftover loaf was as fresh as it was when it was first baked and I like that a lot. So did husband at breakfast this morning. This bread smells very good both fresh and toasted.


 


These are very tasty but I like the taste of the baguettes with a preferment or poolish that David makes better. Did anyone ever try the King Arthur Baguette recipe on their site. It's one I like very much and I end up with a nice crisp crust. Here's a photo of them below. I got my photos mixed up so the KA ones came up first.


                                                      KING ARTHUR BAGUETTES


My slashing leaves much to be desired and my photos are not very good. I copied off Eric's info about taking pictures but haven't read them yet :o) I'm sure Eric could help me a lot if I just read his post.


But David's latest baguettes are fast to make and I'm sure I'll make them again. I'm going to throw some White Whole Wheat in some of my other breads. The WWW I used I had ground up about 6 months ago from Wheat Montana's Praire Gold and kept in the freezer.


 


David, your loaves are beautiful as usual. Oh, I should have known you wouldn't make such a spelling mistake in your post! That was funny :o)The two above photos are from David's latest baguette recipe with white whole wheat.


 


Thanks David for anothe very good recipe.


 


weavershouse

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

I made these yesterday and really liked the results.  They crust and crumb were as advertised, and they reheated well for dinner tonight.  The flavor was wonderful.  I'd like to try a preferment with the addition of wheat flour now.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Well, why these baguettes turn out so well remains a bit of a mystery to me, but thanks to you all for helping determine my experience was not a fluke. 


They have good crust and crumb texture. Excellent flavor. They keep much better than they have any right to.


I need to make them again.


David

adrade's picture
adrade

I stumbled across this recipe a while back on here, and have made this bread maybe a dozen times at this point.  It is a spectacular quick bread to make - I just wanted to thank you for sharing it on here (I have two epis in the oven right now).  Always a hit with the eating crowd!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had totally forgotten about this bake myself! Thanks for the reminder. 

I am pretty sure there are a number of breads I've made which I enjoyed enough to intend making them regularly, then completely forgotten. Re-reading my blog, these sure sound good. I'm glad you have been enjoying them. I'll be sure to get back to these baguettes soon, especially with your recommendation.

David