I never mix with my KA , ever , anymore . So there is a decrease in time / effort in my dough-making process not lengthening. No mechanical equipment needed. I put everything together salt, levain , flours and stir to dampen all. Rest an hour and then do a couple rounds of “ in the bowl” folds. With about 15 min rests between. Dump out and do 2 of my version of laminations at 15 min apart. That’s it. Bulk rise then shape, no preshape. Rise bake no retard.
I was beating like a cake mix, using my rubber scraper , just the whole grain milled flour with the liquids first but not anymore since I’m using almost all home milled flour now.
It’s my attempt to streamline my bread making. It works for me and I’ve noted others here on TFL have tried it with good results. I’ve baked all our bread since the mid 1970’s. This is the easiest routine so far.
This post is very interesting but I have a disagreement about one basic word: strength. It is used inconsistently by various parties, Most often it seems to be used synonymously with "elasticity" but it is not the same. "Elasticity" properly refers the the springiness of a substance - how hard it is to pull out and how it springs back. Extensibility refers to how the substance pulls out and does not spring back, like taffy. Strength is neither.
If I roughly mix flour and water by hand and work with it until it is roughly hydrated, it will feel stiff (unless it's got a very high hydration). But it will not be elastic. Nor will it be very extensible - it will break when pulled out. It will be a stiff mass with low strength that is hard to work with. If I keep kneading it, it will slowly become smoother, maybe less sticky, and start to become both more extensible and more elastic, but mainly it will still feel stiff.
If I knead it a lot more, it will smooth out and start to become fairly extensible. If I knead it a lot more the dough will become very extensible and with a higher strength - think window pane, for example.
I usually rest my dough after a quick rough mix. When I come back to it a half hour or an hour later, it will be much smoother and more extensible after just a few kneading motions than before the rest. A little more kneading builds up strength and elasticity. More rest after this adds extensibility to the dough.
It's not clear to me that I gain much by kneading more after mixing, versus resting then kneading. Maybe whatever goes on during the rest also goes on while the dough is kneaded during that period after rough mixing. Stretch-and-folds after the rest + kneading build up elasticity and strength, and rests between the S&Fs develop extensibility.
The resting period makes kneading much easier for me (mixing by hand) and it's never been clear that omitting the rest does much besides making me work harder. Certainly with very high hydration dough, hand kneading is hard to impossible without that rest.
If you are making a bread that will ferment in a few hours you may not have time for S&Fs to make up for an initial rest. If you are baking bread in a bakery, you may not be able to afford the equipment or space or schedule slack to accommodate a rest period.
For me, being retired and baking one or two loaves at home, a rest period is a real benefit. However, I'm open to being shown the error of my ways...
I would say that if you are using a decent mixer and a mainly white flour grist, an autolyse is optional.
But if there's a lot of wholegrain flour in the grist, then I think an autolyse is helpful to get the bran fraction fully hydrated; of course there are other ways to do this as well.
I started using an autolysis/fermentolyse when I first started working with Durum wheat. The results of my many successful Durum wheat bakes speak for themselves. I continue to use the hydration technique for thirsty flours.
Regarding time - not sure if this is clear enough in the article, but Ian's statements are usually related to production environments with a significant output. Nothing comparable with a home baker, not even with an artisan baker. Assuming that his statement re autolyse is true, in such environments autolyse is an additional useless step and a waste of time and equipment. His general thinking is always: if you know why you do what you do and it is to your advantage, then do it. Otherwise skip it. At least from what I've heard from his latest Insta stories.
"Waste of time" in the meaning of "the process takes longer than needed".
Regarding elasticity and extensibility. First let's forget about strength. Imo "strength" should be forbidden when talking about dough. Everybody uses this word and everybody understands something else.
In the past I've read a few times statements from panettone bakers that with autolyse the primo will be more extensible but less elastic. This seams to align with Ian's statement/theory regarding autolyse.
From December through February, I tested out autolyse in 100% whole wheat doughs with each flour I had (KA red and white, also atta with enough vital wheat gluten to get it to a similar protein content). Tested 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, and ~12 hours overnight in the fridge. For each flour it was abundantly clear at every stage of handling that 12 hours made for the best gluten development and resulted in the best breads. I then compared an overnight autolyse to overnight bulk fermentation (which had been my previous method) and the autolyse was still better, though I wasn't as thorough about comparing these.
I have no personal experience with sifting and scalding the bran, but I do suspect there's more going on than just the bran getting hydrated. Otherwise there shouldn't be such a consistent difference between autolyse and bulk fermentation for the same duration. I might revisit that in the future.
For last batch of 100% whole wheat bread I made, I wanted to try out a different mixing technique and ended up skipping the autolyse. Huge mistake. That's the densest, toughest bread I've made since I started with whole wheat and somehow it still feels dry even though I'm pretty sure it ended up at a higher hydration than I usually work with. Oh, and I spend 65 minutes hand kneading too, because the gluten wasn't developing; it was still leagues away from a windowpane but I had to throw in the towel. So I ended up with the same heavy bread that a lot of people new to whole wheat struggle with. And I made three loaves of that, too. Lesson learned.
Doughs with a 2-4 hours autolyse did end up alright, from what I recall. Just not as good as the 12 hours. If I had a stone mill and could be bothered to sift, I might compare scalding the bran. But that sounds like considerably more effort and handling time than putting a bowl in the fridge and walking away.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Did you do all your overnight or 12-hour rests in the fridge? Some of my best tasting loaves have been when I mixed up the flour and water and let them rest overnight on my workbench.
For a true autolyse (i.e. no yeast/starter) I refrigerate for anything over 4 hours for food safety reasons, because it isn't fermentation. Admittedly I'm much more strict about safe food handling than most home cooks. Any bad organisms do get killed in the oven, but I've learned that some excrete compounds that are both harmful to humans and undetectable to our senses. I'm sure the risk is incredibly low, but for me personally so is the potential reward.
If I add yeast/starter, I'm happy to leave it at room temp for much longer than 12 hours.
In his article, Andrew said that whole wheat was an exception to his new no-autolyse method. However, after posting the article, he added: "[UPDATE, one hour after I sent this out.] I just mixed up two whole-wheat doughs (the only two 100% whole-wheat formulas in the book) without an autolyse and both mixed up very nicely, so it looks like I'm ditching it entirely.]" He does say he uses a sift-and-scald for the bran and that would be similar to an autolyse, but "more effective".
I was discussing the same topic in one of the Facebook groups I belong to Sourdough Geeks. One of the expert bakers there who uses a mix of FMF like I do never uses an autolyze and gets amazing results. It’s hard to break a habit for me when it’s been drummed in my head for so long that using whole grains requires the autolyze to soften the bran. I usually do a twenty minute autolyze and then finish mixing using my Ank and have tried without and it came out fine. I usually sift once with a #30 sieve to remove the large bran out and then re-mill at the finest setting. I don’t scald the bran and add it back but usually add previously saved bran direct to my levain for that bake. I will try the scalding option and see how that works.
This is what I love about bread baking. I’m always learning and evolving which makes it exciting. When yiu stop learning you might as well be dead 😆
Thanks for sharing your process. I really like the way adding a scald of boiling water and flour works but I have not tried just with bran. Not sure why it would make the bran tough though. I guess I will have to try it myself when I feel inspired :). What do you think the salt does for the cold soak? If you do this, do you include this salt as a replacement for the normal 2% in the main dough?
I never mix with my KA , ever , anymore . So there is a decrease in time / effort in my dough-making process not lengthening. No mechanical equipment needed. I put everything together salt, levain , flours and stir to dampen all. Rest an hour and then do a couple rounds of “ in the bowl” folds. With about 15 min rests between. Dump out and do 2 of my version of laminations at 15 min apart. That’s it. Bulk rise then shape, no preshape. Rise bake no retard.
I was beating like a cake mix, using my rubber scraper , just the whole grain milled flour with the liquids first but not anymore since I’m using almost all home milled flour now.
It’s my attempt to streamline my bread making. It works for me and I’ve noted others here on TFL have tried it with good results. I’ve baked all our bread since the mid 1970’s. This is the easiest routine so far.
Always interesting to read other thoughts. c
Gary, I was about to post that link. Very interesting article.
If whatever you do helps - it's good. Question is - does it help - and that's up to you. I should note that I did not read the article. Enjoy!
This post is very interesting but I have a disagreement about one basic word: strength. It is used inconsistently by various parties, Most often it seems to be used synonymously with "elasticity" but it is not the same. "Elasticity" properly refers the the springiness of a substance - how hard it is to pull out and how it springs back. Extensibility refers to how the substance pulls out and does not spring back, like taffy. Strength is neither.
If I roughly mix flour and water by hand and work with it until it is roughly hydrated, it will feel stiff (unless it's got a very high hydration). But it will not be elastic. Nor will it be very extensible - it will break when pulled out. It will be a stiff mass with low strength that is hard to work with. If I keep kneading it, it will slowly become smoother, maybe less sticky, and start to become both more extensible and more elastic, but mainly it will still feel stiff.
If I knead it a lot more, it will smooth out and start to become fairly extensible. If I knead it a lot more the dough will become very extensible and with a higher strength - think window pane, for example.
I usually rest my dough after a quick rough mix. When I come back to it a half hour or an hour later, it will be much smoother and more extensible after just a few kneading motions than before the rest. A little more kneading builds up strength and elasticity. More rest after this adds extensibility to the dough.
It's not clear to me that I gain much by kneading more after mixing, versus resting then kneading. Maybe whatever goes on during the rest also goes on while the dough is kneaded during that period after rough mixing. Stretch-and-folds after the rest + kneading build up elasticity and strength, and rests between the S&Fs develop extensibility.
The resting period makes kneading much easier for me (mixing by hand) and it's never been clear that omitting the rest does much besides making me work harder. Certainly with very high hydration dough, hand kneading is hard to impossible without that rest.
If you are making a bread that will ferment in a few hours you may not have time for S&Fs to make up for an initial rest. If you are baking bread in a bakery, you may not be able to afford the equipment or space or schedule slack to accommodate a rest period.
For me, being retired and baking one or two loaves at home, a rest period is a real benefit. However, I'm open to being shown the error of my ways...
TomP
Great comment Tom, it has clarified some of the nebulousness around the term strength for me.
-Jon
All "resting" does is allow water to absorb. What's actually done is up to the user. I did not read the article. Enjoy!
I would say that if you are using a decent mixer and a mainly white flour grist, an autolyse is optional.
But if there's a lot of wholegrain flour in the grist, then I think an autolyse is helpful to get the bran fraction fully hydrated; of course there are other ways to do this as well.
For hand mixing it is definitely useful.
Lance
I started using an autolysis/fermentolyse when I first started working with Durum wheat. The results of my many successful Durum wheat bakes speak for themselves. I continue to use the hydration technique for thirsty flours.
Will F.
Regarding time - not sure if this is clear enough in the article, but Ian's statements are usually related to production environments with a significant output. Nothing comparable with a home baker, not even with an artisan baker. Assuming that his statement re autolyse is true, in such environments autolyse is an additional useless step and a waste of time and equipment. His general thinking is always: if you know why you do what you do and it is to your advantage, then do it. Otherwise skip it. At least from what I've heard from his latest Insta stories.
"Waste of time" in the meaning of "the process takes longer than needed".
Regarding elasticity and extensibility. First let's forget about strength. Imo "strength" should be forbidden when talking about dough. Everybody uses this word and everybody understands something else.
In the past I've read a few times statements from panettone bakers that with autolyse the primo will be more extensible but less elastic. This seams to align with Ian's statement/theory regarding autolyse.
From December through February, I tested out autolyse in 100% whole wheat doughs with each flour I had (KA red and white, also atta with enough vital wheat gluten to get it to a similar protein content). Tested 30 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, and ~12 hours overnight in the fridge. For each flour it was abundantly clear at every stage of handling that 12 hours made for the best gluten development and resulted in the best breads. I then compared an overnight autolyse to overnight bulk fermentation (which had been my previous method) and the autolyse was still better, though I wasn't as thorough about comparing these.
I have no personal experience with sifting and scalding the bran, but I do suspect there's more going on than just the bran getting hydrated. Otherwise there shouldn't be such a consistent difference between autolyse and bulk fermentation for the same duration. I might revisit that in the future.
For last batch of 100% whole wheat bread I made, I wanted to try out a different mixing technique and ended up skipping the autolyse. Huge mistake. That's the densest, toughest bread I've made since I started with whole wheat and somehow it still feels dry even though I'm pretty sure it ended up at a higher hydration than I usually work with. Oh, and I spend 65 minutes hand kneading too, because the gluten wasn't developing; it was still leagues away from a windowpane but I had to throw in the towel. So I ended up with the same heavy bread that a lot of people new to whole wheat struggle with. And I made three loaves of that, too. Lesson learned.
Doughs with a 2-4 hours autolyse did end up alright, from what I recall. Just not as good as the 12 hours. If I had a stone mill and could be bothered to sift, I might compare scalding the bran. But that sounds like considerably more effort and handling time than putting a bowl in the fridge and walking away.
Thank you for doing the experiment and reporting your results.
I've got to try it.
Gary
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Did you do all your overnight or 12-hour rests in the fridge? Some of my best tasting loaves have been when I mixed up the flour and water and let them rest overnight on my workbench.
TomP
For a true autolyse (i.e. no yeast/starter) I refrigerate for anything over 4 hours for food safety reasons, because it isn't fermentation. Admittedly I'm much more strict about safe food handling than most home cooks. Any bad organisms do get killed in the oven, but I've learned that some excrete compounds that are both harmful to humans and undetectable to our senses. I'm sure the risk is incredibly low, but for me personally so is the potential reward.
If I add yeast/starter, I'm happy to leave it at room temp for much longer than 12 hours.
There was also a discussion here about autolyse a couple of years ago:
Autolyse link repair
In his article, Andrew said that whole wheat was an exception to his new no-autolyse method. However, after posting the article, he added: "[UPDATE, one hour after I sent this out.] I just mixed up two whole-wheat doughs (the only two 100% whole-wheat formulas in the book) without an autolyse and both mixed up very nicely, so it looks like I'm ditching it entirely.]" He does say he uses a sift-and-scald for the bran and that would be similar to an autolyse, but "more effective".
I was discussing the same topic in one of the Facebook groups I belong to Sourdough Geeks. One of the expert bakers there who uses a mix of FMF like I do never uses an autolyze and gets amazing results. It’s hard to break a habit for me when it’s been drummed in my head for so long that using whole grains requires the autolyze to soften the bran. I usually do a twenty minute autolyze and then finish mixing using my Ank and have tried without and it came out fine. I usually sift once with a #30 sieve to remove the large bran out and then re-mill at the finest setting. I don’t scald the bran and add it back but usually add previously saved bran direct to my levain for that bake. I will try the scalding option and see how that works.
This is what I love about bread baking. I’m always learning and evolving which makes it exciting. When yiu stop learning you might as well be dead 😆
I quite often do a bran soaker, but I have a feeling (not scientifically proven...) that boiling water addition makes the bran tough.
So my current method is to do a cold salted overnight bran soak (room temp water at 200% hydration / 2% salt based on bran weight / ambient storage).
Lance
Thanks for sharing your process. I really like the way adding a scald of boiling water and flour works but I have not tried just with bran. Not sure why it would make the bran tough though. I guess I will have to try it myself when I feel inspired :). What do you think the salt does for the cold soak? If you do this, do you include this salt as a replacement for the normal 2% in the main dough?
The salt is just to reduce the likelihood of any unwanted enzymatic or microbial activity. A technique often used by Homebaking and others.
It's not much weight, but yes, I do knock it off the dough salt addition wieght.
Lance