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Liquid to Stiff Starter.

Evrenbingol's picture

Liquid to Stiff Starter.

HI all, I have a regular production levain that we use daily it gets fed 3 times a day , we fork of one at 6am for prodcution to be used with in 3:4 hours at 1:1:1 ration. So it is very healty. 

We also make panettone from itme to time. So I converted my liquid to stuff. But it is way way way to lactic. 

The things I have tired. 

1) flour change 
    a) there was ascorbic acid in the flour so I tried a week of feeding with this flour and a week with an organic flour
    b) I have tried to use a strong flour 13% which did not really triple in 3 hours but around 4 it did. 11 tripled with in 3.30 hours 

2)Lower the hydro to 39% to promote more heterofermentitive starter

3)Have been stroring it 18c also tried 16c

4) Have tried to stored it "bound","in water" and "free". In water is the only one that gave me 3.9 with in 16 hours. Others are around 4 or 4.1 when I am about to start the first refreshment. So I though maybe I get 3.9 is due to water content in my "in water" starter . PH readers tend to read better(even the once for dough reading)

5) Tried different mixing times/gluten dev amount.


Could Flora in the bakery be making a difference?

Once you starter is more lactic can you really go back by adjusting temp/water?

Having fructose in a newly started starter makes a different(raising water)?

If you want to promote acetic environment for your NEW starter  would you only feed at 16-18c. 

How does oxidation make a difference? 

Tied levito madre said to be anerobic but dont we add air in to the dough when we mix?

More mixing more air ->less mixing less air ? Is that why we use a sheeter to develop the remaining gluten?

When levito madres is sheeted and rolled does  the skin on the dough povieds an anerobic enviroment towards the center of the dough as it is harder for the air to reach ?

Long story short how can I point my starter to a "heterofermentative pathway" :)|

mwilson's picture

Are you making panettone at home or in a bakery? Is this a personal endeavour or are you trialling production for the bakery?

What evidence do you have that indicates it is too lactic?

Type 1 sourdough starters by their definition predominately carry-out hetero-lactic fermentation producing primarily lactic acid, CO2 and ethanol/acetic acid. Why do you believe that might not be the case?

Thinking about it, I guess another way ask that question is how do I ensure F. sanfranciscensis or L. Brevis is solely dominant and that L. Plantarum doesn't get a look in.

The house microbiota of the bakery likely influences the desired microbes anyway.

Yes, process can be adjusted to manipulate the physicochemical composition.

The influence of atmospheric oxygen is omnipresent so if the fermentation medium has prolonged exposure to it, then there will be an effect on the fermentation. Without going into detail the nature of oxidation and reduction actually has little to do with oxygen per se. It is more about the migration of electrons.

Being "too lactic" could simply be through accumulation where extended leavening times have occurred.

Evrenbingol's picture

Thanks for replying. 

I think it is more lactic due to taste/flavor and also skin color when wrapped. 

In terms of panettone
My first peoblem is that my ph is too low with the first dough. When it triples i am around 4.5. 

My refreshment are around 4.3 where it should be 4.1 when tripled. So it is out of balance. 


My LM is around 4.1 too after 16 hours. (in water method over night). That gives me 3.9-3.8

At least the literature and online content tells me that these are the numbers. 

I do not know what the interior of LM should be like in the morning. It is not sticky. But recently I increased the hydro to 45 from 39% ad it was becoming impossible to mix.  I see images of cut LMs and it looks like a web but mine is like a cotton candy, but who knows, images might be from "free" managed form that I see. 


i am not after "roy's crumb" i just want to be able to get these numbers and be able to compare other doughs I make. 

It is at a bakery. I make panettone but not upto my standart, so I do not sell them. We use 100-120 hydro levain for production. 

mwilson's picture

I have the same problem regarding pH values in both the LM and primo impasto. I can tell you, I'm working on it and I will let you know when I come up with a solution...

There are many pictures of web like alveoli in a cut LM circulating, while this is fine, what is actually specified by the maestros is simply open pockets... Not a croissant like structure but more like the examples below:

Ultimately a fine crumb with some larger round pockets.

mwilson's picture

I've said it before but a LM starter is more oxidative in nature than a typical starter.

Recently I have made mine significantly more oxidative which has resulted in a higher pH / less acidic primo impasto.

Oxygen is the answer!