The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Ankarsrum- dough development

NicolC's picture
NicolC

Ankarsrum- dough development

Hi I have recently bought the Ankarsrum and have been reading through all the really helpful posts on here. There are some great tips on use thank you. I have been baking sourdough for many years and have had to adjust a few things for the Ankarsrum - I found out the hard way that adding any kind of fluid after the initial mix isn’t great!  So I don’t autolyse or even fermentolyse now thinking that actually the mixer does most of that early dough development for me. However I do have a few questions about how the dough behaves afterwards and I would really appreciate some advice from anyone who has been using the Ankarsrum for a long time.  

1. the dough seems really wet and sticky compared to hand mixing? I usually work at 70-75% hydration. Do people usually reduce the hydration in the Ankarsrum?

2. When I mixed for 15 mins the loaf structure was really tight when compared to a hand mixed loaf. Am I over developing? Everything was exactly the same apart from the mixing and the hand mixed dough was better!  I’m on a slow speed with the roller and 1kg of flour.   I’m at around  8 mins now (I like to keep doing stretch and folds to feel the dough) -does anyone have any advice  on the best timings to use? I’ve added a small amount of spelt into my white loaf too to see if that opens the gluten up more. 

3. Has using the Ankarsrum changed the time in your bulk fermentation at all?

Many thanks! 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Hi NicolC. I've been using an Ankarsrum since 2014 and will try to help. I know others on this site have had theirs for even longer. Some additional detail would help us answer your questions, such as the formula you are following, the flours you are using, whether you are using the roller or the dough hook, and what "speed" you're mixing at. In the meantime, here are some highly generalized answers based on my own use.

I only use the roller, but might use the hook for a super high hydration dough – but only if I felt the roller wasn't getting the job done. The mixer shouldn't affect your hydration. Has your flour changed? Regardless, if you ever feel your dough is too wet, hold back some water when you start the mix. You can add it in a little at a time if you feel the dough can tolerate it. 

I don't refrain from doing autolyses at all. I usually mix them by hand in the SS bowl but sometimes I use the machine. Just give the dough a few spins on the lowest speed until all the flour is wet and ragged, the same as if you were mixing by hand. You want to emulate a hand mix, so keep it very gentle and very short. There shouldn't be a problem adding water, flour, or other ingredients after the autolyse is mixed, or incorporating the autolyse with the preferments or other ingredients. The key is not to be in a hurry. Add the fluid a little bit at a time on a low speed and when it's been taken up by the dough, add a little more. Some more information on what happened might help here.

As for your 8-minutes mixes, it's impossible to say without more information. The main thing to keep in mind is that you're not mixing for time, you're mixing to achieve a particular dough consistency. When the gluten is appropriately developed, stop. If you're not sure, stop early and do some extra folds during the bulk phase if needed. Machine mixing could affect your bulk time if your dough is more or less developed at the end of the mix, the same as if you over- or under-mixed by hand or with any other machine. 

If I had to guess based on the questions you're asking, I'd speculate that you're mixing a bit too aggressively. Like I said, give us a little more information and we will probably be able to provide more meaningful advice. In the meantime, I hope this is helpful. Good luck and have fun with your new mixer! 

–AG

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Agree with AG.  BTW,  I also autolyse using the Ank at the lowest speed, then let sit for 15 minutes.  You can either take off the roller and scraper and rest them in the bowl, or somewhere else, and put on the bowl lid,  or use a shower cap to go over the bowl with the roller and scraper in place.  

NicolC's picture
NicolC

Thanks that’s really helpful to know and a good tip about the shower cap too 😄, I ended up with the dough scraper and roller really stuck in the dough or removing and double washing up,  none of which seemed to save anytime compared to hand mixing…..

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Good tip on the show cap! Thanks, Barry!

–AG

EDIT: Um, shower cap

NicolC's picture
NicolC

Thanks so much AG,

I am trying to understand the Ankarsrum using a basic white using the same flour I am familiar with: 1kg white organic shipton mill no 4, 70% hydration, 20% liquid levain (1:1) 2% salt. 

I use the roller at a slow speed. I tried the dough hook but it looked a bit harsh for 1kg.

I add it all in together now,  when I tried to autolyse then add in the preferment and the salt and water, the water sat at the bottom and stopped the dough from moving - you are right I definitely added too much at once in that case!

It seems that I need to try slower additions with similar timings to hand mixing - a bit more resting in between. 

When you remove your dough from the mixer what stage of development is it at? Smooth and shiny with a windowpane? Or still a little sticky and needing further work through stretch and folds?

Thanks again

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I had the same experience as you ,  adding too much water all at once was counter productive,  so  I added the water first, then the flour.  Moste of the time, I mixed until it passed a window pane.  The nice thing about the timer is that once you made the recipe once or twice, you can get a good estimate of how long that would take, and just set the tmer.

NicolC's picture
NicolC

Hi Barry thanks, so this morning I’m back to trying a fermentolyse (which is what I used to do by hand most of the time) so levain mixed into slightly less water and I’ve held back water and salt to add later to take me up to 67% hydration in total. I usually add more from wet hands when stretching and folding as well so it will probably be more around the 70% mark.   Shower cap is on!  Let’s see if I get a more open crumb like I usually get when hand mixing 🤷🏼‍♀️

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

The first thing is to try and stop thinking about using time as a dough development cue. You need to mix until your dough is developed to the degree you want it regardless of whether that takes 3 minutes or 30. Think about it this way: If you crank the speed all the way up, you could have a windowpane in a few minutes, but it might take 30 minutes on the first speed. Or, it might take 10 minutes using all purpose flour but 5 minutes using strong bread flour. It's all relative and the ingredients factor in too. I hope that makes sense. We all like to have a set of SOPs like "Mix on speed 4 for 7 minutes, then rest the dough for 2 hours", but it doesn't work that way. You have to make some judgment calls, but trust your senses and it will be alright. Here are some suggestions to help you make those judgments (some of this might be repeated from my earlier message, sorry!):

1. You need to know the degree to which you want your dough developed. The formula might say "mix to full development" or maybe "Mix to windowpane" or "Mix to medium development."  If it doesn't, but you were happy with the doughs you used to mix by hand, try to achieve that. Now, it's possible that you don't really have a sense of how well developed your dough was when you used to hand mix it. If that's the case, hand mix the dough again and when you are finished hand mixing, take note of the dough's appearance: Does it hold its shape, is it firm, does it spread out, is it shiny? Then, tug on the dough to get a sense of its strength. Try to pull a windowpane and see how the windowpane looks. Write down your observations, then refer to your notes and try to achieve those same qualities with the mixer next time you bake.

2. You can hold back some water when you mix your final dough. Some bakers do this as a matter of routine because how much water your flour can hold varies from day to day depending on many factors including the humidity. Add in the withheld water a bit at a time if you believe your dough will tolerate it. You may need to reduce the mixer speed when you do this but if you just add a little bit at a time, it should be fine.

3. Take notes when you mix: what speed you were using, how long at each speed, what the dough consistency was like at various stages. (You can turn the mixer off and check the dough whenever you want.) Refer to those notes the next time you bake and adjust accordingly. Do that every time you bake and you will soon hit upon the sweet spot for that particular dough. If you feel your doughs end up a little over- or under-developed, make a note of it so you can adjust the time or speed next time. 

4. To incorporate ingredients (including autolysed dough), you can and should swing the roller arm away from the side bowl and more into the center to capture any dough or loose ingredients that are not being taken up. You can also do this with the scraper. Just remember to do it at a speed that will keep water from splashing (or flour from poufing) all over the kitchen. In most cases, you will incorporate ingredients at a much slower speed than the actual mix speed.

5. I don't know precisely what speed your mixer is running at, but suggest erring on the side of caution until you get more comfortable with the machine. You can always mix a little longer if you need to, but once you over-develop the dough, which is easy to do on a fast speed, you can't undo it. For starters, try mixing with the 4th or 5th box at the top of the speed dial and see how that goes for you. I sometimes mix at that speed when using a new formula. That will help you learn how fast or slow the dough comes along at a particular speed. If you adjust the speed, do it in small increments and write down the times and results. Check the dough as often as necessary.

6. This is just a general tip that you probably already know, but in case you don't: With an Ankarsrum you should always always always add liquids to the mixer bowl first, no matter what the recipe says. if you add dry ingredients first, you may not be able to hydrate all your flour. (You might get away without doing this with higher hydration doughs, but its a good habit to do it all the time, otherwise a dough is eventually going to end up in the trash.)

This might be more detail work than you are accustomed to, but if you stick to it, you'll get a feel for your new mixer much faster and then you can rely more on your senses.

Good luck, NicolC! Let us know if you have more questions or need clarification. Send pictures of your bakes. We love that stuff 😊

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Mainly white flour with 10% whole rye. Hydration slightly north of 75%. The speed was set with the 4th little box symbol at the top of the speed dial. Mixed about 3 or 3½ minutes. Dough development was medium-ish, (no windowpane nor even close, but it did resist when tugged). I plan to do a couple folds, maybe a lamination depending how the dough seems when I get that far. I'm making notes on my spreadsheet so I'll know what to do next time if I make this formula again. This followed a 75 minute autolyse (longer than intended, but I had an interruption). Just to give you an idea how I approached a new formula.

NicolC's picture
NicolC

Great let me know how it goes! Thanks.

NicolC's picture
NicolC

That's so true I have been hand-mixing for years and had stopped really looking at the dough in different stages, I'm hand mixing one this morning to pay more attention and make notes!. Thanks for taking the time to reply it really is incredibly helpful. Following on from yesterday's all white dough made in the Ankarsrum, where I followed my normal process (fermentolyse for an hour, then added 10g salt and 10g water) but at a slightly lower hydration (70% total). I used the dough roller on the slowest speed for around 3 mins, so a lot less mixing than I expected to do, but the dough held a window pane. Overall it produced a lovely loaf (pics attached). It looks a little smaller than a hand mix one, and it felt tighter at shaping, but will have a look at the crumb when it cools down. It's possible it could take more time in bulk before refrigerating.

*Added - yep slightly underproved..

After today's hand mix I will do an Ankarsrum at a higher hydration and keep comparing. I think I somehow imagined that the Ankarsrum would be superior to hand mixing!

 ANK v1 All white @ 70%

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

For this particular dough hand mixing could well be superior, but you might want to make other breads for which you prefer the machine. So the mixer might increase your baking repertoire, encouraging you to try breads you otherwise wouldn't. In my case, I always hand mix some doughs and always machine mix others. It's a lifesaver for high percentage whole grain doughs, enriched doughs like brioche or challah, sticky doughs like rye, very high hydration doughs, etc. In the years since I got the Ank, my hands have started exhibiting symptoms of arthritis, so I use it more often now. I've had to learn how to apply the machine to get as close as possible to my hand mixed doughs. As you are finding out, hand mixing is so gentle and the machine is so powerful, it doesn't take much at all. 

Your bread looks great and I bet it tastes great even if its a little under-proofed. It's a challenge to nail fermentation. Happens to all of us. (Temperature control is the hardest thing for me!)

–AG

NicolC's picture
NicolC

Yes that's it - I was just having that exact same thought and conversation today about what the Ank really offers to me and it's all those things and not really for the daily loaf at the moment. Sorry that you have arthritis :(.  

Yep assessing bulk fermentation..it is the holy grail isn't it, such a challenge to get the right point to shape, I always think the finger poke test is a bit useless for sourdough when you follow with a long cold retard, although in England it is often cold anyway!

Smashing thank you so much for all your help.