The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Bread maker or stand mixer?

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Bread maker or stand mixer?

Because of a shoulder injury and I am considering the purchase of an appliance to assist with mixing and kneading of bread dough. The concern I have is that I prefer 100% whole-grain breads or high-percentage rye breads. I have been using Peter Reinhart’s Whole Grain Breads “epoxy” method or Stanley Ginsberg’s The Rye Baker recipes with good success. Most of the WG and rye loaves I have made have been 900–1000 g dough weight. I find this is good fit for a small Pullman pan.

My question is whether a stand mixer or bread machine would be the better choice. I have seen several posts here at TFL stating that a heavy, high-percentage rye dough was not mixable or outright killed a stand mixer not named Ankarsrum. Would the same dough also kill a larger bread machine like a Zojirushi Virtuoso Plus?

What about the KitchenAid Classic K45SS 4.5-quart or Hamilton Beach 63991 4-quart stand mixers? I am also concerned about the weight of the Zo and the KA—nearly 25 lbs., making them difficult to put away when not in use. The HB mixer is lighter, but does that mean a heavy bread dough is a pipedream? Any recommendations will be appreciated. Thanks!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Whatever model of Bosch that the US "Wondermix" is, would supposedly work.

1000 g of whole grain dough is too much for a 4.5 qt KitchenAid, and is likely marginal for a 5 qt model.  A 6 qt model, AC or DC motor should handle it. 

A big enough breadmaker to handle that is going to rival a larger KitchenAid in price.

I am impressed by the "very large batch" video near the bottom of the main page at www.wondermix.com.

I doubt you could get the WonderMix product in the UK, but I do suppose you could get the Bosch-labeled version, whatever that is.

--

As they say... you pays your money and you takes your chances.

Good luck, amigo.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll take a look at the Wondermix.

Do you have any  thoughts on the NutriMill Artiste mixer? (https://www.amazon.com/NutriMill-Artiste-Kitchen-Stand-Mixer/dp/B077GDYGRJ/)

Amazon has the Zojirushi Virtuoso Plus breadmaker on sale for $218, nearly half-off. But can it mix a 70–100% rye dough?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Ach. I thought you were "albacore" in the UK, when I wrote that. Sorry, ol' bean.

That Nutrimill Artiste looks like Will F's mixer. (Roadside Pie King). I don't know anything about it. It could be a re-label too, for all I know.

I think Yippee has a Zoji, so I would check with her.

Benito's picture
Benito

I wouldn't consider the KA classic, the main reason is that the gears are plastic, at least I believe that they are.  Even the gears in the Artisan models are plastic.  For metal gears you have to go up to the Professional models with the bowl lift mechanisms.

Benny

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks, Benny. I had  a feeling that the KA Classic wouldn't handle the dough.

Do you have any thoughts about the NutriMill mixer? It's slightly less powerful than the Bosch Universal Plus, but I don't need to make really large batches. Actually, I worry the 6.5-qt bowl size may be a problem for only ≈1 kg/1 L of dough.

Benito's picture
Benito

I have to say that I have done doughs up to 1000 g in my KA artisan 5 qt mixer, probably why it is now long for the world, but the bowl size is not an issue for that weight of dough.

I haven’t spent anytime researching mixers so don’t know anything about the NutriMill mixer at all.  I will probably get the KA Professional 5 qt mixer when mine dies though, I think it is good enough for my needs.

Benny

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

under 6 quarts to make bread dough. ;-)

You "could" get a 5 qt Professional KA with metal gears. But to get metal gears _and_ the minimum power motor that you need for whole grain bread dough, you should only consider 6 quart models and up.

Here's a comparison chart:

https://mixitbakeit.com/compare-kitchen-aid-stand-mixers/

Now that you are doing whole wheat loaves, you need the wattage that comes along with the 6 quart models, ... assuming you want to stick with a KitchenAid.

Like you, Will F does pies as well as bread, so maybe ask his opinion on his mixer.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Dave, one big issue is that the larger 6 qt KA won’t fit on our countertops clearing the upper cabinets.  It is close but no go.  In fact right now the 6 qt is on sale for much less than the 5 qt machine but it just won’t work.

That being said, I actually still mix mostly by hand including today’s 100% whole wheat loaf.  The only times I use the mixer is for enriched doughs and only 50% of the time do I use the mixer.  When I have mixed 100% whole wheat enriched dough the mixer was able to develop the gluten very well without issue except that the gears are now clicking which I believe indicates that they are deteriorating.  🙁

happycat's picture
happycat

Kitchenaid claims clicking is normal while mixing heavy doughs. I get it too sometimes on my Pro 5 with metal gears.

There's a whole thread about it here on TFL and someone linked it to the dough hook moving on the drive post, which was also my hypothesis,

Benito's picture
Benito

That is interesting news to me, thanks for posting that David.  I was under the impression that the clicking was a sign of impending doom for the gears!  I would have thought that only doing one loaf’s dough at a time would be safe for this mixer, so perhaps I don’t need to be worrying as much about it.

If it does die, perhaps I need to consider other options like the Bosch that Mariana seems to like.

 

Camarie's picture
Camarie

 

I have the Nutrimill Mixer. it is very good!! And powerful!!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Have you tried using a regular electric handheld mixer with spiral attachments? You still need to hold and move it around yourself, so doesn't remove all the strain from your arm I suppose, but the cost is negligible, size is really small and it works surprisingly well. And you might already have it even...

Perhaps you need to be a little lucky with the attachments, I tried another (ancient) model here in Moscow, and the dough was climbing up a lot so couldn't be used till full gluten development, but that didn't happen at all with the one I had back in Edinburgh.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Heck, get a maid.  There are a lot of household chores that an injured shoulder cannot handle.

 Think clean up.  Which machine has the least amount of clean up?

mariana's picture
mariana

In your situation I think that you either need a mixer or both mixer and programmable bread machine (for rye breads and rye starters which require elevated T to ferment).

Zo Virtuoso Plus won't be able to knead rye dough, especially stiff rye dough, and anything above 30% rye will require a mixer. 1 kg of dough, rye or wheat won't kill it, for sure, it's a dedicated bread machine, it kneads very well. But it won't be able to knead high % rye thoroughly due to the mechanism of kneading in a bread machine.

Well, you could, I guess, first knead thoroughly some sort of rye slurry with everything in it except a small portion of rye flour in Zo Virtuoso and then finish adding the last portion of rye flour by hand, but that will involve using your shoulder which needs rest and protection. 

Zo Vituoso is not portable. It doesn't have a handle like Zo Mini. You would have to find a permanent place for it in your kitchen. 

A lightweight mixer that kneads up to 1 kg of bread dough, wheat, rye or any other grain, is Bosch Compact Mixer

https://www.boschmixers.com/product/compact-stand-mixer/

I use it every day for my rye breads. It's the best (I own Ankarsrum as well, Bosch is way better). 

Wishing you a speedy recovery from your injury. Get well soon!

a.peabody's picture
a.peabody

Do you have any thoughts about kneading smaller batches of dough in the Bosch Compact mixer? Perhaps 600-700 g dough weight? 

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, of course. Smaller size batches are perfectly alright. It kneads very well everything from tiny amounts up to 1 kg of dough due to the special trajectory of its hook and the geometry of its bowl bottom that leaves no portion of dough untouched. 

1kg is probably its limit in a sense that 1 kg of dough would quadruple when rising and fill this mixer's bowl, but 4L (or 4qt) is not the limit for that amount of dough to rise to max volume. So I routinely make smaller batches of poulish and dough in it and let it rise to the max, to the edges of the bowl. 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

While personally,  I prefer my Ank for most things, and it will handle very small batches,  I use my Bosch Compact for pizza dough, and the normal amount is 260 grams of whole wheat flour, and it has no problem with small size batches.

justkeepswimming's picture
justkeepswimming

You had mentioned the Bosch compact in the past, and that's what I ended up getting. I love it. It's compact, light, easy to clean, stores well in our small kitchen, and does a good job on my 950-1000 gm 100% whole wheat doughs. Thank you for the tip!

Mary

mariana's picture
mariana

Mary, I am so happy that you like it! I've had mine for years and it just doesn't disappoint.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thank you for the kind thoughts for my recovery. I’m going to go with the Bosch Compact. You are one my top authorities on rye bread, so if you can make rye bread every day with it, I’m sure it will work once a week for me.

Have you tried any of the accessories for the Compact, like the food processor or the slicer/shredder? I misplaced the discs to a Cuisinart food processor in a move years ago and the parts are discontinued. I might get the Compact's slicer/shredder accessory in the future.

I haven’t needed unusual temperature control yet for rye breads. I can maintain ≈29 °C with a light in my oven, and I have an Instant Pot with a yogurt function that will maintain ≈40 °C. For other temperatures, I’ve thought about getting an inexpensive temperature controller to use with a heat source in a foam cooler.

mariana's picture
mariana

Unfortunately, no. I got mine without any accessories. Tell us if you get them. I would like to know your opinion. I have my Cuisinart discs, but prefer using Borner slicer. 

Zo Virtuoso maintains 32-33C for up to 12 hours and it mixes, stirs or kneads soft or liquid rye preferments. I find it very convenient in rye baking. This temperature is ideal both for sourdough yeast and lactic bacteria propagation and for lactic acid/gas production. 

It would also bake your loaf, because your pullman pan fits inside its baking chamber which I find convenient. My oven is very large and, especially in summer, I don't like to use it for a single loaf of pullman bread. I bake all tinned single loaves, large and small, bread or cakes (like banana bread from a single banana, about 1lb in weight), in Zo Virtuoso Plus.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I have the slicer shredder,  it works fine, but I don't use it all that much since usually I only need a small amount of shredded cheese, and it is more trouble to set up and clean up afterwards than using a hand shredder.