The Fresh Loaf

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Panettone made with regular sourdough starter???

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Panettone made with regular sourdough starter???

I have recently seen a panettone recipe video by Joshua Weissman on YouTube. What made me curious was that he uses his regular liquid sourdough starter that he converts into a stiff 50% starter and refreshes it every four hours a few times to stimulate yeast activity and remove acidity. While his process is similar to preparing a lievito madre, it is not lievito madre, just a stiff sourdough starter. He also uses a very small amount of commercial yeast in the recipe, which can be left out.

Has anyone tried this recipe? Can it be any good? Would it not produce a sour panettone? I am planning to try it out some day, but before I do, I thought I would ask if anyone had experience with this recipe. 

Here is the video: https://youtu.be/Vdl1xudUdzo

 

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

I tried JW's recipe for my first attempt at making panettone because it was the only recipe I totally understood and the recipe corrections were clearly addressed. I was successful, I thought, but after I went through it, making a real lievito madre now makes sense to me, especially after the panettone I ordered "From Roy" arrived. I tasted mine and Roy's side by side since I didn't have a benchmark and figured I should try the best so I would know what to aspire to. When my chef-husband saw mine, smelled it, and then tasted, he thought it was beautiful! Then he saw Roy's, and went "WHOA" and then tasted and said....."oh, you have a LONG way to go..." And he's right. Roy Shvartzapel is one of probably less than a handful of USA bakers making an extraordinary panettone. I don't, and will never, have the equipment to achieve a panettone on Roy's level but I know I can get closer, better. Nor can I find a source to buy the Italian 00 grade flour for the LM with a W over 330, ideally 380 and <0.55% ash, as Roy uses, etc. But I can make a real lievito madre that I started tonight. Take 2 coming soon....Relieved

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

so much for your comment! Your panettone is beautiful. Let us know how your lievito madre turns out.

Regarding the JW panettone, did the taste have any detectable sourness because of the regular starter? That's the only thing that worries me. After going through such a demanding recipe, I wouldn't like to have a sour panettone. But based on what you say, it was still delicious and you don't mention sourness, so I assume it was good. I think I will give it a try. I understand what you say, it is probably better with lievito madre. At this point, however, I am not ready for that adventure, so I will try the JW version first. 

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

No sourness detected by myself, husband, or the other members of my taster focus group. If anything, a touch of bitterness from the candied orange peel I made, or it could have come from the orange brandy I soaked the raisins in. I didn't have Fiori di Sicilia or a vanilla pod, and didn't want to invest in such expense for a trial, so I used vanilla extract. Other than that, I followed JW's recipe exactly, even though I was tempted to change a couple other things. My crumb is definitely too tight and although I got spot on proofing through each step, I didn't get the loft during baking and no further expansion when cooling. If I didn't have an authentic, high quality panettone to compare mine to, I would have considered myself a superstar. It was most certainly edible, in fact, quite delicious, but nowhere near where I need to go next.Ready to Ice

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

One can always improve a recipe further and become even better at it. Nevertheless, these look just great to me. And thanks for confirming that there is no detectable sourness. Keep us posted on your next panettone with your new lievito madre!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Cheryl, have you considered 

Antimo Caputo ‘00’ Americana Pizzeria Flour? Micheal Wilson investigated American flours for the Lievito Madre. He really liked the spec sheet on this one. It can be ordered from Amazon and other places in the US.

HERE is the Spec Sheet.

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

Thanks so much for bringing this to my attention. It is so confusing because the spec sheet talks about high hydration and a lievito madre is low hydration. Also, the flours highly recommended for pizza dough are usually not good for enriched doughs like panettone or super power leavening. But I will definitely investigate!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

 Cheryl, Michael, aka “mwilson” is our resident LM authority and Panettone baker. He is technically trained in fermentation among other things. That is the flour he picked out for me, considering I live in the U.S.

I do know that it is very strong. I have successfully used this flour with both low and high hydrations.

I’m talking with Michael today. If I remember I’ll ask him to reply to your post.

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Danny, would you say that the Antimo Caputo ‘00’ Americana Pizzeria Flour is also a good choice for making the panettone itself, not only for preparing the lievito madre?

Peter

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Thanks Danny for bringing me into this.

To be clear the Caputo Americana is a good choice for its ash (type 00) and its strength (W360-380) and also the gluten balance (P/L). It is a good fit for both the LM and for panettone, the only compromise is that it is malted, which is not so ideal. Despite that one caveat I would still recommend it.


Michael

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

for your clarification. The Caputo Americana will be my choice of flour for my next panettone!

Peter  

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

My chef husband just told me that if we send Central Milling in Petaluma the flour specs we want, they will try to accommodate our request as close as they can. I will contact and see what they can come up with. Ya never know till you know!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

dupe

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

CM has a pizza flour, 15% protein, .55% ash, 370-390  W, and unmalted.

it's the last entry on their "store" page.  5 and 50 pound bags.

They call it 00, but since it is .55% ash, it's not true 00.  By '00', they probably mean small particle size, granulometry.

--

Also look at the Caputo flour page in english:

www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour

In the 25 kg bag section, their Saccorosso/Rinforzato fits your bill, 00, 300-320 W, .5 to .6 P/L.

Manitoba has higher W, 360-380, but is 0, not 00.

Oro has 370-390 W, but is 0, not 00.

In the Cuisine range, 1 kg and 5 kg, the "Manitoba Oro" is type 0, and 370-390 W.

All the above mentioned Caputo flours are .5-.6 P/L.

You can get full bags and smaller size repacks of Caputo flour at:

www.brickovenbaker.com

--

The 1 kg Cuoco  or "Chef" flour is close.... W 300-320,  P/L .5-.6, and is sometimes available at local Italian specialty shops in the US.

--

Also check your local restaurant and pizzeria supply businesses. Since the pandemic they started selling to individuals. You can often get Caputo and General Mills pizza flour there, both All Trumps (malted) and umalted Neapolitan flour.

 

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

All great info - to throw another hitch into the giddy-up, I try to use organic ingredients whenever possible. Almost certainly won't work for this flour application but I'll keep trying to source. Thanks so much for your time.

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

So after consulting with the good folks at Central Milling, I'm going with Central Milling Organic Type 00 Reinforced Flour: https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-00-reinforced/. Also, from what I read, the CM Tony Gemignani’s “California Artisan” Type 00 Pizza Flour is malted and also contains ascorbic acid - Vitamin C (which actually strengthens the dough per Tony). 

The CM Organic High Mountain flour I'm currently using is lovely but I think the extra refinement will be even more lovely. I was also advised that some, please note some, specialty Italian flours have proprietary enrichments that they don’t necessarily disclose. Hard to actually compare certain flours when things are hidden. So good luck to me and to everyone else going down this rabbit hole ~ cheers!

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Hi Cheryl, the CM Type 00 Reinforced is stated to be 0.60% ash, presumably and likely AACC standards, therefore on a 14% moisture basis. This equates to 0.70% ash on a dry matter basis (dmb) as per European standards. The ash content therefore exceeds the maximum for type 00 but also type 0 (<0.65% dmb). So officially it would fall under type 1 in Italy.

The caution here is this flour would be problematic when using it to maintain a LM type starter based upon the processing guidelines. Higher ash means it will take too long for the pH to reach to the optimum pH 4.1 and the acid load will be greater also.

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

Actually, the CM Organic Type 00 Reinforced flour is indeed a true Type 00 granulation with a lab tested 0.55 ash. Once my flour arrives, I will visit www.centralmilling.com/coa. On my bag, there will be a LOT Code that I can plug in, type the name of the flour in the appropriate field, and I’ll be able to retrieve the actual Certificate Of Analysis specific to that LOT. 

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

I'd be interested to see that analysis when you get it.

Still though, I'd imagine the ash analysis to be done in accordance to AACC standards and therefore be reported on a 14% moisture basis. 0.55% => 0.64% on dry matter.

Also, in Italy, these grades Type 00,0, etc. are designations of ash and nothing else. I know even US millers seem to be confused about this. Granulation / particle size of common wheat is not defined within the legal specification.

North American wheat is typically higher in ash at an equivalent extraction and type 00 is about 50% extraction, so it makes sense for US mills to not follow the Italian standards, but therein lies the confusion.

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

Yes, of course. But the point for me, a crazy Californian, is after going down the panettone rabbit hole, I was about to give up my commitment to using organic flour/ingredients for the sake of striving to produce an other-worldly panettone. Now I've come back down to earth with a quest to produce the best damn panettone I can using high quality, organic, domestic flour sourced from my local purveyor. The folks at Central Milling come from generations of farmers, millers, and bakers and have been at the forefront of producing incredible organic flours. They are true professionals, if not geniuses, and no matter how many forums, blogs, or opinions I read, these are my go-to peeps. I am not a scientist nor baker. But I am a trained chef, my husband a bonafide chef, and we love clean, delicious, fresh food, and maintain a huge, year-round organic garden in Northern California. So while I will do the research, way too much according to my husband, I am now ready to bake and bake and bake panettone and come up with my own conclusions and remedies based on trial, error, taste, and a lot of practice, which is the fun part!

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Thanks Dave for highlighting further US available options.

I was going to mention that some of the stronger flours were limited to type 0, but you updated accordingly.

Cheers.

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge. I am far from being an expert in flour specifics, so I am learning a lot reading your conversations.

Michael, you mention that the Caputo Americana 00 is a good choice for panettone with one small caveat, that is, being malted. Can you explain how the presence of the malt in the flour can be a disadvantage when it comes to panettone? Does it have an impact on fermentation, or is it more of a texture issue? 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

The lower falling number / higher amylase activity is likely to accelerate lactic development by LAB and will also contribute to faster dough softening. With that in mind, it may be that feeding every 3 hours instead of 4 is better with this flour.

It's worth noting that some panettone formulas include malt, typically with processing where the LM is maintained in water overnight. This makes sense because a LM kept in water retards lactic development.

There may be other ramifications to consider.

Thomas Teffri-Chambelland recommends the falling number be between 330-400 for panettone.

Most malted North American flour targets a falling number of about 250.

 

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

It all makes sense now!

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

This is great info! I could see the W number but not the ash so if it wasn't malted, would be perfect. I am 3 days into making a lievito madre with Central Milling Organic High Mountain Flour and tomorrow I start bathing and refreshing. I am thinking I will start another LM with the discard and the new flour and see if it will take? If it does not go well, I'll start over. I'm excited about this - woo hoo! Thanks so much~

suave's picture
suave

That's how widely used Sua's recipe is done and in a decade+ it's been around I have not heard any complaints about sourness coming through.

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

The recipe I am talking about was posted on YouTube only 2 years ago. 

Nevertheless, it is good to hear there have been no complaints about sourness. Thanks for your comment!

suave's picture
suave

I did not look at his recipe - watching a 20-30 minute video to get the information contained on one page is just not for me.   What I am saying is that this sort of approach to panettone has been around for a long time.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

July is a perfect time to experiment with panettone. It gives us all time to get ready for Christmas baking. I  have not made a true panettone,yet but I make what I call a "Pannettoche"-more of a brioche than a pannettone. BUT, all the experiments have not been in vain. I finally have come to understand HOW they manipulate the dough and gluten to achieve the feathery crumb of an excellent pannettone-I just haven't been able to achieve it. SO KEEP POSTING your experience and we all learn a little more.

The concept I have learned but haven't mastered is that a really strong flour is necessary because the process develops an incredibly strong (LOTS of gluten strands), very elastic dough that is then exposed to a very strong,non-acidic LM in a very  controlled and specific temp and time until the gluten network is degraded to just the right weakness. It is then baked to set the crumb and ,Voila, a wonderful, feathery, delicious panettone. Knowing the concept is important but how to achieve it is a different story. A feathery crumb can be achieved in many bread. A delicious fermented flavor can be achieved,also. But to get a really feathery,melt-in-your-mouth crumb with a fully developed (and not over-fermented) flavor in the SAME crumb when it is a sweet dough using natural leavening is a bit more difficult, I have found. So have fun and keep posting!

 

tothpianopeter's picture
tothpianopeter

Thanks, I will post as soon as I try the recipe. You say strong flour is necessary. Do you think KA bread flour is strong enough? It has about 12.7% protein content. 

Cheryl's picture
Cheryl

I used Central Milling Organic High Mountain Flour = 13.5% protein and ash at .60% - same flour JW uses. It is available to purchase online in small quantities, but apparently, the higher ash is problematic. My next goal is to eventually find Molino Passini 00 Panettone Flour for the LM processing and refreshments (the same flour Roy uses). For now, I'm sticking with the High Mountain flour.Cooling