The Fresh Loaf

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"Nobleman's" bread - 80% rye with seeds

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

"Nobleman's" bread - 80% rye with seeds

Russian bread, not an old GOST recipe, but rus brot reverse engineered it from the ingredient list: https://youtu.be/1Vwf3TzPTYU

Original formula: https://fgbc.dk/1696

Here is the formula, using a mix of light and whole rye flour available to me, instead of medium rye: https://fgbc.dk/1667

I asked the miller about the extraction rate of the light rye, since they don't know the ash content I had to rely on that to mix whole and light rye to approximate the Russian medium rye standard. It was approximately 1 part light rye to 2 parts whole rye. And it seems that was a good ratio, I didn't need to adjust the hydration relative to the recipe, beyond just using wet hands when mixing, which is normal anyway.

It was my first attempt at free-standing mostly rye bread, so I was following the recipe as close as possible. My new heating system worked well, just set to constant heat, basically, and I had very similar rising times to what rus brot had.

So, for maximum power I refreshed the rye starter from the fridge according to rus brot's refreshment schedule for 70% hydration sour in the end over three feeds. Last feed was done yesterday morning, at the same time as the scald. Scald was kept in the oven, which was manually adjusted to approximately 65C by measuring the temperature.

Preferment contained the starter, scald and more water and flour, and was kept warm until it peaked, around 5 hours.

Final dough was mixed by adding flour to the preferment, together with salt, sugar, molasses (I used black treacle), and seeds. When the dough came together it was surprisingly not very sticky, and easy to handle with wet hands (although until it was mixed properly it was a mess). After kneading for a few minutes to distribute the seeds, the dough was fermented warm for 1.5 hrs. Then shaped using plenty of light rye flour to avoid sticking, and proofed in my bannetons, also generously dusted with rice flour. Proofed for 50 min on the heat pad.

When taken out of the bannetons, I remove excess flour as best I could with a brush, and then brushed with plenty of water. Already here I noticed the dough was cracking for some reason. I suspect the surface might have overdried with too much flour when proofing, but avoiding cracks in hearth rye bread is a challenge with a lot of factors involved.

Sprinkled with seeds (probably put too much), and baked in preheated oven on steel at 260C for 10 min, then reduced to 190C and baked for 50 min. For most of that time switched to bottom-only heat to avoid burning the top.

I am really pleased with the crumb for 80% rye bread, and didn't get too many cracks, so reasonable free-standing rye bread is possible quite easily! Seeds are of course delicious. For some reason the taste of black treacle comes through a bit more than I expected, and the bread is overall on the sweet side.

Comments

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow Ilya those look incredible.  Really remarkable for 80% rye, wonderful bake.  I’ve never tasted black treacle is it generally sweet?

Benny

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

molasses, according to Wiki. See entry for treacle, or molasses.

In the US, we have (at least in the Brer Rabbit brand)  "mild flavor molasses", "full flavor molasses", and "blackstrap molasses" in increasing order of concentration of minerals. All have 60  calories per tablespoon.  But mild has 100 mg potassium, full has 210, and blackstrap has 450.  

Concentration of minerals (essentially the flavor or strength of the flavor) varies among brands.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Rus Brot replied to my comment on the video - basically, molasses, or black treacle, is not the right thing to use here. The best replacement for Russian "мальтозная патока" is malt extract. The equivalent of molasses is apparently not used for human consumption in Russia, only for animals. I think the difference is that the equivalent produced when making sugar from beets has an unpleasant smell, while when making cane sugar it's more palatable.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Benny! Black treacle is very sweet (~60% sugar), but also has a relatively strong flavour on top sweetness. It's one of the stickiest liquids I've ever touched.

I don't know if it's the same same black molasses, I am confused by the English terminology. But it's something very similar to molasses, and can be used as a substitute, as far as I understand.

albacore's picture
albacore

Very nice looking crumb for 80% rye. I must try that kind of %age soon.

 

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Lance! Hope you try something similar, it's delicious.

For this sort of high % rye, Rus Brot is an excellent source for proper recipes and techniques. It's a shame most info he puts out is in Russian, but some videos have English subtitles (or you can auto-translate auto-generated subtitles!), and google translate should do a decent job with his blog (https://brotgost.blogspot.com/)

I am also happy to help with translations, if anything is unclear.

albacore's picture
albacore

Well, I'm still trying to work out what this wallpaper rye flour is! Is it something to do with grain where the bran has been peeled off?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Ha that you can consider equivalent to whole rye. It's essentially whole rye without the biggest bran particles, sifted once to achieve 95-96% extraction, something like that.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Not to disrespect the Nordic or other Northern and Eastern Eurpean countries, but... dang,... you Russians know your rye!

 I really wish pentosans/FODMAPs didn't upset my system so much.  I have to limit rye to about 5% in my bread.

When I was younger I really enjoyed a store-bought dense, moist, almost as wet as cake,  black bread that I think was a type of Borodinsky.  This Borodinsky Supreme reminds me of it: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/37222/borodinsky-supreme-old-school-100-rye

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well, I don't know who does rye better, but there is a big variety of rye breads everywhere in the north/eastern Europe, and by the way Rus Brot has quite a few recipes of German and Baltic rye breads too. And certainly it's nothing to do with me personally, I'm still a novice :)

Oh, that's a shame you can't stomach high % rye bread! It's a whole universe of completely different flavours. I didn't realize this was possible, rye is always considered more "healthy" than wheat.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Look up FODMAPs and pentosans on Wiki.  Some people are overly sesnsitive. I think it's genetic.   Rye is high in pentosans, or at least higher than common wheat.

I'm sensitive to inulin, chicory, erythritol and other similar -ols, garlic, soy and any high concentration  fructan source.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Yeah, I looked it up when I saw 100% spelt recipe from Maurizio, which he says is low FODMAP - so I had a look what he is talking about. Didn't know pentosans could cause similar issues!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Fodmaps are (usually?) fructans, which are a subset of pentosans. Rye may be  specifically fructans, as opposed to the larger category of pentosans.

Fructan = chain of fructose molecules.  Pentosan = chain of any 5-carbon sugar. 

If we don't break it down in the small intestine, it gets to the large intestine, and that's where the problems can start. ;-)

_Whole_ spelt gives me the same problems.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well, fructose has 6 carbons, so it's not exactly a subset of pentosans... And a quick google suggests rye is richer in fructans than wheat, but not by a huge margin. And I can't find anything about pentosan intolerance, except in relation to pentosan polysulphate, which is used as a drug.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Yeah, fructose has 6 total carbon atoms, but has 3 carbons in a ring of 5 atoms, whereas glucose has 4 carbons in a ring of 6 atoms.

So you're right, I oversimplied to the point of error.

In human nutrition, the fructose and glucose supposedly have different pathways when metabolized, as per Dr. Lustig, here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

His position on obesity/diabetes  is controversial, but has his explanation of the metabolic pathway (re, fructose going through the liver, and what byproducts are created) been debunked?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I'm not an expert on that, would need to check papers...

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Ilya, this is great. I've never done a high percentage rye, although I am fascinated by them – Borodinskis and Scandinavian-style ryes. My understanding is that they are hard to do well. Kudos to you, these came out great. I love all the seeds.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you AG! Having some sort of temperature control is important for proper dough development with high rye, other than that I wouldn't say they are particularly hard - but they do take time with many stages. Also, matching flour grading is a bit of a challenge, if not using just whole rye, since in a lot of countries flour is not standardized.

Benito's picture
Benito

The following is what I counsel my patients.

FODMAPs

Fermentable Oligo-saccharides Disaccharides Mono-saccharide And Polyols

These polysaccharides may not be well absorbed in many people.  As a result, they reach the large intestine where they are broken down by the bacteria that reside there.  This breakdown results in the creation of water and gas, which then leads to diarrhea, cramps, gas and bloating in affected individuals.

By reducing one’s consumption of the foods high in FODMAPs one may be able to improve one’s symptoms.

High

Asparagus, artichokes, onions, leeks, garlic, legumes/pulses, sugar snap peas

beetroot, savoy cabbage, celery, sweet corn

apples, pears, mango, nashi pears, watermelon, nectarines, peaches, plums

Cow's milk, yoghurt, soft cheese, cream, custard, ice cream

rye, wheat

cashews, pistachios

Low

alfalfa, bean sprouts, green beans, bok choy, bell pepper, carrot, chives, choy sum, cucumber

lettuce, tomato, zucchini

banana, orange, grapes, melon

meats, fish, chicken, tofu, tempeh

gluten-free bread, sourdough and spelt breads, rice, oats, gluten-free pasta, quinoa

almonds, pumpkin seeds

gavinc's picture
gavinc

These look great. Well done. I recently baked a three-stage 70% rye and found that the bread cracked a little during the bake. I think surface cracking is a sign of a genuine high per cent rye bread and I would be worried if it didn't.

Cheers,

Gavin.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Gavin!

Cracked crust is a very common issue with rye bread, but it's not desirable. Smooth dark surface is a thing of beauty, when done well without any cracks, but I feel that requires everything to go perfectly with the bake, and takes a lot of practice to achieve.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Yes, rye bread does look good with a smooth dark surface. I'm just not used to seeing it here. 

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Bread looking like this is the rye perfection for me https://youtu.be/ZQ_p7IihoZs?t=726

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

For a free-standing bread of 80% rye, you achieved an amazing result!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! I'm also really please with it, my first venture into free standing rye with such high percentage. Rus Brot has perfect recipes! Some have English subtitles, if you want to work on your rye bread that's an amazing resource.