The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Advice pls on grinding small amount of rye

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Advice pls on grinding small amount of rye

Periodically I make a bread much-loved in Canada called Winnipeg Rye. It barely counts as rye bread because it's mostly bread flour, but those of us who grew up with it have to have our hit once in awhile. :) Among the ingredients is coarse ground whole rye soaked overnight, just 100 grams for two loaves. Until recently, was able to get coarse ground rye from the bulk section of a local supermarket chain. No longer.

I have destroyed two coffee grinders, trying to get rye berries from Whole Foods ground to an approximation of coarse rye. Don't dare try my blender or food processor as I rely on them for so many other purposes. I've taken a hammer to the berries, both as is and slightly roasted as per advice from a chef friend. I have, of course, looked online at grain mills (so expensive!). Also to see if I could source the product in something other than 20 kilo bags from bakery & food service distributors. No luck on the latter. Both online and locally, I can only find whole berries, rye flakes and rye flour.

Any advice for me? Some solution that doesn't cost the earth either here in Canada or because of duties if imported from the US? All thoughts welcome. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If you have a Mortar and Pestle, it might be worth a try.

Would it be wrong to grind the rye berries n the WF coffee grinder? I have no idea about that.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

You can buy a mill attachment for it that isn’t too bad in price if you can find it on sale. I used that before I got my Komo mill. 

By the way, if you can swing it, the Komo mill is worth it!

rgreenberg2000's picture
rgreenberg2000

Found these guys while searching for some whole durum berries.  They've got 11.34kg bags of cracked rye available.  Probably to large of a quantity for you, but an option.....  organic-cracked-rye

R

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

soaking them first and then chopping them up?  Or how about cooking the whole grain first, let it cool,  then chopping with a knife or just dropping them into the dough whole.  Whole cooked can also be tossed into the blender with liquids to make smaller.  You get a Tangzhong effect.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mini, I just found the word for you. “MacGyver” I have faith that you can MacGyver anything. If this pandemic remains, my wife and I are going to move in with you and your crew. We’ll all live like kings!

How I wished I had your ability to think outside the box...

Danny

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 I carry around with me.  It's the knife.  Surely it's the knife.  

What box?    :)   

This pandemic can't last forever, sooner or later we'll all be immune to it and it will run out of hosts.  (Cough, cough.)  

apprentice's picture
apprentice

So sorry not to respond sooner to all the great advice! I looked and didn't see a notification option re: replies received. No doubt it was there, and I was just too scattered. As I seem to be a lot more than usual lately!

DanAyo I asked @ WF if I could use their coffee grinder...or did they have another I could use. Nope on both counts. I'm a nice Canadian. Had to ask. :)

Danni3ll3 Good reminder to watch for a sale! I have a KA and saw the attachment on amazon dot ca. At $180 CAD, decided "too expensive." 

rgreenberg2000 You're right, too large a quantity for me. Not for other grains perhaps, but I don't go through a lot of rye these days. But I'm very glad to know about those guys. And who knows? I might find someone who wants to share the bag with me. Or I might get back to making more rye breads. Had tons of fun years ago with Hamelman's pumpernickel, etc. Definitely an option to keep in mind!

Mini Oven I did try roasting, cooling, then chopping & soaking as per my chef friend's suggestion. Might work better if I roasted them longer. Dunno. It was the best yet, but still added too much gritty texture. Will try your suggestion for the reverse, i.e., soak first and then chop. Your final suggestion for whole cooked with liquids in the blender to produce a tangzhong effect is VERY intriguing. In fact, that could result in the very texture that the original recipe's method produces! Thanks!! For that and all your suggestions.

Definitely agree with Danny's MacGyver observation. Coincidentally a cousin said that about me a few years ago. I was making this very bread at her home, visiting while on a x-country road trip. Needed to grind some caraway seeds. She didn't have a mortar & pestle. No coffee grinder at all, let alone one dedicated to spices. So I went out in her back yard and found some good-sized stones. Washed them well, etc. Voila! Where there's a will, there's a way. Right?

So appreciate everyone's suggestions. As long as we can bake, and there are folks who share our passion for making and/or eating good bread, it's a wonderful world. Be well! And all your loved ones, too.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in my rice cooker.  The best is when the water is all cooked up and the bottom grains begin to carmelize..so good!  Make extra so you can have a bowl of warm cereal too.   Just thinking about it makes my mouth water.

When we lived in S Korea for a few years, the tv show was very popular and comparisons were made.  I was even summed the tune when caught.  Da da daaa, da da daaa...  and yes, had my handy knife with me.  It's the knife.  (Smile)

tony's picture
tony
apprentice's picture
apprentice

You found my recipe, the first one in that article from the Winnipeg Free Press, only with modifications I would have counselled against had I been consulted.  Some day I'll have to write up the complete story of my quest to duplicate the bread of my youth.

Readers' Digest version for now: There were two Winnipeg bakeries in the old days that produced a light rye claiming the moniker "Winnipeg Rye Bread". I believe the Jewish community patronized City Bakery, and the Slavic community went to North West. It was the latter that seemed to be in all the supermarkets and convenience stores in my area of the city. A few other shops began producing our local favourite (KUB, Natural Bakery and so on). Ownership of all these bakeries changed several times along with the formulas used. Businesses got bought out, franchised, etc. All changes to the bread were, of course, hotly debated by the populace as to which was best, the most authentic, etc.

When I went to baking school 14 years ago, our handouts had something called Winnipeg rye. Nope. I kept googling over the years. Occasionally found recipes and tried them. Nope. Made some great rye breads from books (chiefly Greenstein's and Glezer's), but they weren't Winnipeg rye.  One day, I nearly jumped out of my chair. Found a reference to an article from the early 1980s in the Canadian Bakers Journal. I tracked the author down to a bakery in Calgary AB. And he very kindly shared not only the article that included a bakery-sized version of a recipe, but a smaller recipe he had scaled down from somewhere else.

I was overjoyed and started experimenting. Meanwhile I saw a reference online that the Winnipeg Free Press had a request for this bread for their recipe swap feature. I wrote to the editor and told her that my own efforts were in progress, but I'd be happy to share them once I was more or less satisfied with the results. That led to the article you cited.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

Share the recipe...thank

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

Share the recipe...thank you. 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Editor made a few small changes, mainly from grams to ml for the metric version of the ingredients. Goofy imo. But that's often the way recipes are published in Canada since we moved to the metric system in the late 1960s or early '70s. Most unfortunate that outside professional circles, people in North America often aren't acquainted with the many benefits of working in weights rather than volume.

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/historic/33101974.html

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

I am in Pennsylvania and have understood the benefits of weighing in grams for 20 years now. In fact volume measures drive me nuts.Thanks again the link above yours was not allowing me in from my phone....yours did...why I don't know.

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Gram amounts for the formula are as follows:

Overnight Soaker: 96 grams coarse rye with 170 grams water

Final Dough:

574 grams bread flour, divided  (300 initially during brief autolyse, all in with all other ingredients except 274 held back with 12g salt)

20 grams whole rye flour

4.5 grams instant yeast

5 grams ground caraway seeds

5.5 grams brown sugar

8.5 grams barley malt syrup

17.8 grams oil (I use safflower or canola)

284 grams water

soaker: 266 grams

I use Maggie Glezer's glaze modified as follows:

1-1/2 tsp. cornstarch in 5 oz. water and heat until just thickened (not a paste yet/still flows)

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

even better thanks again. Matt

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Im not a subscriber and couldn't pull up the article.  Thanks for posting.  

apprentice's picture
apprentice

I'm not a subscriber to the Winnipeg Free Press either, Mini Oven, but both Tony's link and mine work for me. Maybe because I'm in Canada. Who knows? Anyway I'm glad you might get some use out of the formula. It barely counts as rye bread for most rye afficionados, but them's fightin' words to a born-and-bred Winnipeger. :) My take when I'm trying to be more objective is that it's a nice light rye. Quick to make and one that most people seem to enjoy. Even those who swear up and down that they can't stand caraway, so they're grateful for a rye that doesn't include it. Sometimes I tell them. Sometimes I don't.

Lovely as your morning toast. Also can't be beat for setting out as a late-night snack at a party with an assortment of sandwich fixin's, including good Polish sausage if possible and other cold cuts, cheddar cheese, mayo, mustard, and don't forget the dill pickles. Potato salad's not a bad side along with a veg & dip platter and potato chips of course! 

Let me know if you have any questions on the method. Readers Digest version: Very short autolyse, 10 to 20 minutes. Add held back flour with salt and mix 2nd speed 8 minutes. 30-min. bench rest. Shape long. Short rise, 40 to 50 minutes. Score and bake with steam 460F 10 minutes. Then depending on how hot your oven is, 400-420 for 20 to 25 minutes. Glaze on removing from oven.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Maybe being on the other side of The Pond prevents downloading.  There are some big hairy capital letters mentioned.  GPDR.    Here is what I see:    (Too bad they use a different edition.)

 

Description

The General Data Protection Regulation is a regulation in EU law on data protection and privacy in the European Union and the European Economic Area. It also addresses the transfer of personal data outside the EU and EEA areas. Wikipedia

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

Exactly the opposite happened to me. I tried and tried even giving my email address now they send me the paper for free every day

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

that isn't full rye.  Like you said.  I take it the malt syrup is light in colour and active with diastase? 

apprentice's picture
apprentice

No, non-diastatic and somewhat on the dark side. If you can get it on your side of "the pond", Eden Foods traditional organic is nice. Expensive but lasts a long time, at least for me. Will give you the link. If unavailable, molasses is a decent substitute.

https://store.edenfoods.com/barley-malt-syrup-organic/

 

RRC's picture
RRC

Try your local home-brew beer supply store for rye.  It's usually stored as berries and cracked to order.

My local store only carries malted rye but a sprouted and dried rye should work even better than raw rye berries for your bread.

apprentice's picture
apprentice

Great suggestion.