The Fresh Loaf

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advice on dark rye

pul's picture
pul

advice on dark rye

Hi TFLers,

 

I love rye and it is the first time I baked using dark rye, which is coarser than the rye flour I have been using. I prepared a loaf based on the stuff below

 

Levain   
starter10g3.2%
dark rye50g16.1%
water70g22.6%
    
Final dough  
all levain130g41.9%
APF119g38.4%
dark rye136g43.9%
water142g45.8%
salt5g1.6%
    
total flour310g100.0%
total water217g70.0%

Matured levain for about 8 hrs. Mixed all ingredients (no autolyse), applied 3 stretches and folds, bulk fermented for about 6 horus over night. Shaped as batard, proofed for about 1 hr and half, and baked at 230C (hot oven/hot pot) for about 25 min lid on + 10 min lid off.

Picture of the crumb and crust shown below. Even though I used 40% APF, the crumb did not open much and the oven spring was shy. I would like to improve on these two aspects. I personally think I need to improve the strength of my levain (perhaps need a double build), and maybe autolyse the flour. How much autolyse time would be recommend? What else could I do to improve on these issues? Flavor-wise the the loaf tastes quite good. I love the rye notes that I can taste. Some sourness and also some subtle honey flavor brought out by the dark rye.

peter

 

 

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

That is a beautiful loaf! Did you cut it while still a bit warm? The crumb has that appearance. With 40% rye, it will act more like rye than an AP loaf. It may need 24-48 hours for all the moisture to distribute evenly in the crumb.

If the rye flour you used was coarse-a bit like cornmeal or cream of wheat consistency, then the crumb will be a bit coarse even with a good soak.

Let me introduce you to Stan Ginsberg and his site-the Rye Baker. Here is a link for an article he wrote about different rye flours. Enjoy his site.

http://theryebaker.com/rye-flour/

pul's picture
pul

Hi Clazar, many thanks!

Yes, it was a bit warm since I was going to have lunch and wanted to have a piece. Next time, per your advice, I will wait longer (if I can, LOL).

I am happy with this loaf and 60% dark rye will make it more dense. However, I have seen 100% whole grain bakes around here that bloom like crazy. I would like to figure out how to achieve more spring oven (a bit more). The flour I am using is organic rye with bits that resemble corn meal, so it socked up some water.  

Thanks for the reference, it looks very useful with beautiful loaves.

peter

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You may have to use a pan or form (and perhaps up the hydration 80 to 83%) to support the sides during the final rise and bake.  Love the entoxicating aromas of baking rye.  Will dare anyone to wait until it is cooled down and set for cutting with a sharp straight knife.  

The loaf looks lovely!  You won't have the doubling (100% or more) of volume like a wheat loaf, the rye won't let you but if you managed a minimum 50% increase in volume, you're doing well.  The loaf has a very nice lift on the shoulders and looks good!  

Mini

pul's picture
pul

Thanks Mini for the advice. I think I managed to get 50% increase in volume.

I will try to increase hydration and will report on the result.

peter

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

Your bread looks beautiful.. yet one more bread for me to bookmark and put in my 'must try one day' pile.. well done!

pul's picture
pul

Great! Just finished it for breakfast. Both flavor and texture were quite nice.

peter

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

you finished it.  

Good to save a slice or two, moisten and crumble into the next loaf. Gives great flavour and strange enough, more volume.  I tend to cut a few slices when a day old and freeze for the next loaf.  :)

Old bread is called "Altus" in case you were wondering... or not.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Shame Shame!!!

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Old post, sorry, but I've a question on altus.  Early screwups are giving me plenty of altus, lol.  However, I've sliced the loaves and allowed the slices to go completely dry, either in an unheated oven till dry, or simply air-dried on a cooling rack.

I have on hand sliced store-bought Borodinsky which was dry and nothing to write home about.  I either allowed the slices to simply air-dry completely or dry in an unheated oven and they are in an "altus bin", something, it feels, like a compost bin.

I've a bit of my latest volkornbrot.  Is it less than optimal to keep dried bread out, as opposed to freezing it till use?

Is it wrong to essentially make bread crumbs for the ready, pulsing in a cuisinart - is an altus better used freshly crumbled into a dough?

Finally, Borodinsky is strongly flavored (not yet decided I'm a fan of fermented red rye malt).  Would you recommend against using such breads for altus - sticking to fundamental dark ryes, avoiding any highly spiced, sugared (e.g., dark or blackstrap mollasses, honeys, sugars, etc)? Or is it more or less immaterial given altus quantities used and the main flavors coming from the dough?

Thanks,

Paul

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Do what works best for you, just don't grind the hard dried altus into a flour. I think the dough benefits from rough crumbs.  I've never run a test comparison making two identical loaves one with altus and the other with altus flour (super fine crumbs.). Might be interesting.  I have dried crumbs first shredded then dried.  I also have frozen moist slices.  Frozen dried crumbs and frozen moist crumbs.  I think also dried slices, no wait, those are cut into croutons to dry.  If they dont get used as croutons, they end up as altus.  The dried slices and crumbs at room temp are the first to go rancid in a few months so use them up first.  Just weigh the dried crumbs or slices and add a % of water to rehydrate.  You can get as scientific as you like. 

Winging it is more fun!  My last bake was about 4 slices of a dark rye 3 days old and partly dried out (the heel) and I just poured about a cup of hot water over the barely broken slices in a bowl with lid.  Shaked & rotated the altus every so often until the bread crust softened up.  Squished up any chunks with my fingers and poured into the middle of a big bowl already with 500g bread flour, 9 g salt, and 6g instant yeast (needed a fast tasty loaf in a short time) plus some ground caraway and some bread spices.  A cup of tepid water to the side.  In with one hand to stir and moisten the flour and the other hand holding the bowl and giving a splash of water when needed.  Covered and left alone for 20 min.  Kneaded in the bowl and after two minutes, covered and let double.  Deflated and shaped on counter using envelope folds, tightened the skin and let rise not quite double on parchment in my baking wok.

Covered with the second wok to bake in 230°C oven on the bottom shelf.  After 20 min, uncover and rotate and move shelf up one notch.  Let finish baking about 30 min.  I had an ear, a nice crust and soft beautiful crumb.  We ate half the loaf for evening meal.  It made great toast in the morning and it was soft enough to make covered sandwiches as well.

The altus makes for a nice crumb.  I normally use altus in sourdough but it is great in yeasted breads as well.  

Did I miss anything?

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks.

Not a thing, including my congenitally worrisome temperament.  :o

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

High percentage ryes do not benefit from stretch and fold because the gluten in rye doesn't have the stretching capability.  There's no expectation of a very open crumb, therefore, but in exchange a properly fermented loaf has a very tender crumb contrary to its dense look.  Hamelman and Ginsberg recommend you wait to cut into the loaf 12-48 hours after baking (depending on the recipe and percentage) on the higher percentage ryes to allow the crumb to set (i.e., not be gelatinous).

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

favorite is Minis 100% Dark Rye with Chia seeds at 104% hydration.  I make it with figs and walnuts.  I find autolysing 100% rye breads to be be a bit problematic since the enzymes in rye are totally different..... just like the bread itself - totally different. Mini's 100% Dark Rye & Chia Recipe ...Love at 104% hydration

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33328/minis-100-dark-rye-chia-recipe-love-104-hydration