The Fresh Loaf

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Pizza dough problem

stiggs's picture
stiggs

Pizza dough problem

Hi everyone,

I've been reading through "The Elements of Pizza" and tried the 24-48 hour pizza dough.  I have very little experience with baking (ie. none at all) - I'm a computer programmer.   I've tried the recipe 3 times now and my dough has very little elasticity.  When I try to shape the pizza by picking up the dough, the dough stretches out way too much and leaves me with all the volume at the crust and an ultra thin centre.  The dough has lots of air bubbles in it as well (I should have taken a picture).  What am I doing wrong?  

I'm not using pizza flour. I'm using Canadian all-purpose flour.  I have tried with 60%, 65%, and 70% hydration and get the same results - too floppy and bubbly.  Help!

Thanks for reading.

HansB's picture
HansB

You can try a couple of things. Less time fermenting and also if it is too extensible you can re-ball it an hour or so before stretching.

GAPOMA's picture
GAPOMA

Sounds like you're over proofing it.  I make pizza dough several times each month, and I ALWAYS use all-purpose flour.  So the flour isn't your problem.  My dough is typically around 60-65% hydration and I like to use a little bit of olive oil in it to keep it soft.  Here's my go-to recipe which is easy to handle and has never failed.  Probably a good place to start for a beginner.

180g (3/4 cup) water
30g (2 Tbsp) olive oil
3g (1/2 tsp) salt
325g (2-1/3 cups) all-purpose flour
10g (2 tsp) yeast

I typically mix & knead for about 5-8 minutes, then let it rise/proof in a warm spot for about an hour.  I then stretch it out and let it rise again for about 10 minutes before putting toppings on and then baking in a 500'F oven for about 8-12 minutes.

You can add some rosemary (1Tbsp), basil (1 tsp) and/or italian seasoning (1 tsp) to this to give the crust a bit of an "Italian" flavor.

- Greg

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

try the above recipe.  

Your dough does sound like you could make an apple strudel though, keep pulling it out on a floured tablecloth until it's the size of the table, cut off the thick "crust" edge and then scatter grated apples, nuts, raisins, sprinkle of cinnamon and sugar or dabs of philly, a nice filling all over it.  Roll up using the table cloth.  Snake into a large flat cake pan and drizzle with melted butter.  Bake 200°C for 30+minutes or until it browns nicely.  Cool and cut up.  What?  Sure. You could put all your pizza ingredients in it and roll it up too!  A pizza roll!  Top with some garlic butter.  Oh man!  I'm making myself hungry.

Postal Grunt's picture
Postal Grunt

This recipe was included with an email from KAF today.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/pizza-party-buns-recipe

iain's picture
iain

Apart from from over stretching how is it?

thoordog's picture
thoordog

I use a similar recipe as stated above. I normally cold proof over night in the fridge, then freeze. I take my dough out, let it thaw, and get to room temperature before shaping and Im usally fine. 

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

since others may have issue with cold fermentation.  I know I certainly did.

I don't think flour is really an issue since Canadian AP flour is higher in protein. Cold fermentation isn't always straight forward. A couple things that I found effected the quality of the dough:

1. Yeast. Instant yeast isn't ideal IMO.  Also, the amount of yeast matters.  For a long cold ferment, I prefer active dry and a bit less than indicated in most recipes.

2.  Refrigerator temperature. Ideally you want it at 38 degrees fahrenheit-- sorry, I don't know what is in celsius. Home refrigerators are very inefficient, so they will run hotter than the set temperature. So a its best to check it with a refrigerator thermometer.

3. Finished dough temperature. After you mix your dough, check the temperature. Ideally you want the finished dough (meaning dough you just finished mixing) to be around 80 degrees fahrenheit. Finished dough temp is important because a warmer dough means more yeast activity. If your ingredients and mixing technique make the dough too warm, you're  going to have too much yeast development too soon. And that yeast activity will create a lot of carbon dioxide bubbles before you get the temperature under control.

4. Keep in mind the size and density of your finished dough ball effects how quickly the dough will chill once you get it in the refrigerator. So if you have a large dough ball, and your finished dough temperature is above 80 degrees, your going to have more yeast activity.


5. If your find dough temperature is too high, then try using cooler water and/or chill you flour a awhile before you start mixing

stiggs's picture
stiggs

Thanks for the reply.  I appreciate the details.  Just curious  how do you use active dry yeast?  Do you proof it before or put it in dry?

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

the yeast unless you feel the need to confirm its alive.

There's a company that manufactures a baking steel for pizza and bread. They have a good 72 hour cold fermentation pizza dough recipe on their website. The first 24 hours is a bench bulk fermentation; the dough is balled, then cold fermented 48 more hours. It calls for bread flour, which has a protein content comparable to Canadian AP flour. So it may be a good recipe for you to try. I added the link to the recipe below.

You'll notice their recipe calls for active dry yeast AND the amount is a lot less than most recipes. I really believe active dry, amount of yeast, and dough temperature are really key to making a good homemade pizza using long fermentation.

I like to give the dough balls a generous dusting of flour. I find it too sticky if I dust very lightly.

Just a word of caution about bulk fermentation at "room temperature". Room temperature is a misnomer. If it's in the dead of winter, ambient temperature in your kitchen maybe in the 50s; if it's in the middle of summer, the ambient temperature maybe in the 80s. Ideally, you don't want the kitchen to be warmer than 75 degrees. The first time I tried a long fermentation dough, I was living in Southern California, in a house without air conditioning; it was 85° in my kitchen. Suffice to say the dough was a total loss.

http://www.bakingsteel.com/blog/72-hour-pizza-dough

Also when you form your pizza. I find just pressing the dough flat, then gently tossing it back and forth a couple of times between my hands works best. I find I ruin the dough when I use my fists to stretch and shape it. New York Times has a good video that demonstrates how to shape pizza dough. The Roberta's pizza dough used in the video is pretty good (that's the dough I used to make pizza in the photo below). It's the dough one of my friends always asks me to make when I bake pizza for him.

https://cooking.nytimes.com/guides/1-how-to-make-pizza

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

HansB's picture
HansB

the recommendation to use ADY over IDY? IDY works just as well plus it does not need to be proofed. If you choose to use ADY be sure to convert the amount. http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

Norcalbaker's picture
Norcalbaker

instant or rapid rise yeast gives an immediate burst of enzyme activity. Great when you have short fermentation and proofing times.  Great when you want to use your dough the same day.  The immediate yeast activity means faster CO2, alcohol, and organic acids production in the dough.  But too many ch will destroy a dough.

Keep in mind that flour is mostly starch. That starch is converted to sugar, which feeds the yeast, which in turn produces alcohol (ethanol) and organic acids in the dough.  Yeast continues to grow and more alcohol and organic acids are produced.  Over time the alcohol and organic will begin to destroy the gluten structure of the dough. Its essentially turned into a flabby gassy bag of dough that is too weak to shape and won't rise when baked.

The OP described dough that's just that: excessive tiny air bubbles and dough so weak it tears when he tries to shape his pizza.  So he needs to bring the fermentation under control.  Temperature and yeast are the ways to control it.

Active dry yeast is slow out the gate and down the stretch. It gives you more control over long fermentation. You can still over-proof with active dry yeast, but in long fermentation, it gives you a lot time.

Dissolving and proofing are different. You proof yeast if you need to confirm its alive. I know active dry yeast instructions are to dissolve it in water before using. But that really isn't necessary.

I toss active dry yeast into dough all the time without dissolving it first. But if you want it confirmed from a known food expert, then see the King Arthur Flour blog on this subject.  It was written by PJ Hamel, who was awarded Cookbook of the Year award from the James Beard Foundation for the "King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion."

http://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2015/09/25/active-dry-yeast/

The recipes I linked to do not require the yeast amounts to be adjusted as they are developed for active dry yeast, not instant yeast. The only time yeast amounts need to be adjusted in a recipe is when the recipe calls for one type of yeast, but you intend to use another type.