Over-risen bulk fermentation in Overnight country brown. Rehabilitation?
Yesterday I decided to make Ken Forkish's "Overnight Country Brown," carefully following his steps including the overnight fermentation. He says to allow the dough to ferment for 12 to 15 hours so that it is nearly tripled in volume. Well, by the morning the dough had tripled, but was very loose, so most likely it was over-risen. It was impossible to shape into a ball, the dough flattening into a pancake. I am actually annoyed that the recipe would state the the dough should triple and that it would take 12-15 hours at room temperature. I did some research and discovered that many "fresh loafers" have made this bread, but have either shortened the rising time, or did the bulk fermentation in the refrigerator. I will do that next time. Though, I still want to know if bulk fermentation needs to triple in volume. Does anyone know what might be ideal? Maybe doubled is sufficient.
In the meantime I have this unshapeable dough. Has anyone been able to salvage a dough that has over-risen? I was thinking of just adding some yeast and trying to bake these in bread pans. Does anyone have any ideas? I can't really use this for pizza since I Had added walnuts to the dough!
I would appreciate any insights that anyone has on over-risen dough and Forkidh's recipe. Than you.
-Caryn
for me as written but I happen to have the same kitchen temperature. If your kitchen is warmer than 65-70f, then you do need to shorten the rising time. And triple is what you aim for.
As to the dough you have, a couple of thoughts but please realize I am a newbie so I haven't actually done any of these. I wouldn't add more yeast As it seems like your yeast ran out of food which is the flour. I would probably re knead the dough working in a bit of flour, shaping it right away and then into loaf pans for a very short rise to about 50%.
Hope this helps!
You have two options. Chuck the probably over-fermented dough and start over or proceed best you can.
I would dust the dough liberally with flour and shape the dough by repeatedly folding it. You should be able to develop some dough strength, unless there has been too much proteolysis. Also keep your hands floured and use your bench knife to help with the folding.
Danni's suggestion of a shorter proof is probably reasonable.
Many of us have had a similar experience with Forkish's timing prescriptions. He clearly did not have his recipes tested in Summer in the Southwest! Anyway, the take-away lesson is:
Happy baking!
David
Yes, I would agree with Danni and David - first, don't follow the timings so much as watching the dough, and second, try working in some more flour and then proofing the dough (and watching it!).
It would be interesting to keep a couple hundred grams of the dough and use it as a starter (pate fermentee) for another batch of dough.
i thank all of you for responding to my dough problem. I was so frustrated with the dough that I tossed it. It was just too hard to work with and in the past when I tried to fix such a dough I usually ended up with a flat brick. So on to the next try! I will try this formula again because I know that many have had a lot of success with it by tweaking the rising tomes and temps.
I will most likely put the dough in the refrigerator for at least part of the bulk fermentation because I cannot watch the dough while asleep! That way I can observe it in the morning I hope. I have successfully made his other formulas where you bulk rise during the day (and hence you can watch it), and then proof the loaves in the refrigerator over-night. I also don't seem to have problems with Hamelman's formulas where his guideline times usually seem to work well.
So before I attempt this again, I would appreciate any guidelines. Does the dough really need to triple? I am really spoked. I can't have this happen again. I have been successful with other doughs where they have not tripled, but I always wonder if the crumb would be more open if I did extend the bulk fermentation a bit more for these. Since I have a proofing box, I am able to control the bulk temperature to some extent- even better when we are running air conditioning here.
David- Do you know your optimal times and temperatures you used for this formula? By the way, I din't feel so bad knowing I am not alone having experienced this problem. Bread-making can be so satisfying and rewarding when it works!! As in most things, if you don't experience some failure, you probably will not improve.
Hi, Caryn.
My Summer kitchen temperature is also in the mid- to high-seventies (with AC on) in the Summer.
The only time I have let one of Forkish's doughs triple, it was a mistake. I left it on the counter while I went to a concert, as I recall. I usually ferment until the dough volume has increased to about double to 2.5 times. One issue is that very wet doughs don't expand the way drier doughs dough - just like the difference between a firm and liquid levain. I pay a lot of attention to bubble formation throughout the dough which I can see, since I bulk ferment in transparent bowls or bins.
My total fermentation time is variable, according to the ambient temperature, but I usually feed my starter the day before mixing the dough, let it ripen and refrigerate it overnight. In the morning, I let the starter warm up for a couple hours (during the autolyse, in part), then proceed. My dough is ready to divide and shape well before I go to bed. I refrigerate the shaped loaves overnight and bake the next day.
As you can see, this is a very different schedule from Forkish's, but it works well for a retired guy who doesn't like to get up too early in morning. I have also done the final levain feed early in the morning, per Forkish. That just leads to a longer day, but I don't let the bulk fermentation go overnight at room temperature ever.
By the way, in Winter, when my Kitchen runs around 65dF, I ferment the dough in a proofing box set to 76dF. I think that is the ideal temperature for sourdough bread flavor development, unless you want a super-sour flavor. But that's another topic.
David
Thank you, David, for your info. It is a bit infuriating that a cookbook author has not thoroughly tested his formulas, resulting in many (noted on this site) that have had to waste a lot of ingredients and more importantly their valuable time! I will repeat the dough soon, but will never allow the dough to triple. That is too risky. I will try your modified schedule. I am guessing it should make a big difference as I think I may have followed a similar schedule when making Forkish's 75% whole wheat bread with success.
As far as flavor is concerned, would a lower temperature for longer result in the bread being more sour?
Thanks again,
-Caryn
The relationship between sourness, fermentation time and temperature is complicated. The simple answer is firm levains and cooler fermentation makes more sour. Except it doesn't seem that simple. I find a longer cold retardation of levain or of formed loaves results in more sour flavor. Except it doesn't always.
And, to add to the confusion, very warm fermentation (over 100dF!) was used in the old days to make very sour San Francisco sourdough bread. So, join my confusion, if you wish.
David
David- Thank you. I will blissfully remain confused so long as I like the results of my breads. My recipients of my bread never complain about the flavor, I was just curious.
David- I am about to re-try this recipe and decided to roughly use your schedule for it. I just want to make sure I completely understand what you have done:
You create the levain on day one some time in the afternoon so that it develops for 7 or so hours (I know this can vary, of course.)Then you refrigerate it onernight. Correct? I don't think I have ever refrigerated the ripened levain for a recipe.
On day two you might take the levain from the refrigerator at say 10 AM, autolyse the flour and water at perhaps 11:30 and then mix the dough at noon. Then you do the folds for the first 2 hours, then allow it to bulk ferment until 2 -2.5 times which might bring you to about 6PM. I am guessing that the total time for the dough is about 6 hours or so (That is including the folding time.)Then you shape and put the loaves in the refrigerator for the overnight proofing.
Then of course you bake the loaves on day 3.
Does all of this make sense? I would assume you also don't want to leave the loaves in the refrigerator more than about 16 hours or so either.
I know there aren't any hard and fast rules, but I just want to make sure I understand one method that has worked. I am actually scaling down the recipe this time to one loaf just to be extra cautious.
One more thing that I would like to share with anyone baking from the Forkish book: I never make his full levain amount, only making enough needed for the recipe. To do this, I just divide the amount needed for the recipe by the full levain amount and use this percentage to calculate the amount of starter, flour(s) and water . That way I don't constantly waste.
Again, thank you, David, for your insights. I know it will help other bakers using FWSY formulas as well.
Caryn
I did ferment this dough for 12.5 hours. My room temp was 71F and my final dough temp was 78.9. I had subbed out 104 g of multigrain flour for some of the white flour and had added 1/2 cup of dried shallots and 2tbsp of rubbed sage.
Proof was just over 4 hours but the last hour and ten minutes were in the fridge. Life must have gotten in the way of baking or the dough was proofing too fast.
Hopefully, these notes from my bread diary help.
Thank you, Danni. I am betting that my room temp was closer to 76 or so which may have contributed to the problem. I appreciate your input.
My dough just went slack and was so sticky I could hardly get it together. The resulting bread was a disaster. After baking it was flat and the crumb was so sticky it would stick to my fingers. I didn't even give it to the birds because I thought I'd find dead birds under the feeder. It went into the compost. I made another double batch the next day with the same results. Then I poked around TFL and found a post from Eric (Thanks Eric, wherever you are). He said when he gets a dough like that he tosses it rather than throwing good flour after bad dough. He said too much yeast and too long of a preferment. The recipe called for 2 TBL of yeast for 8 cups flour (6 of which were durum flour). I used 1 1/2 TBL for the double batch and put it in the fridge for about 12 hours. Disaster! Twice!
After reading what Eric said I made yet another double batch and this time followed the directions. I like to make most dough in the afternoon, put it in the fridge overnight and finish the next day. The recipe I was using called for baking the bread the same day. So I baked it the same day. Finally success. The problem was too much proteolysis like David said above.
I've had this problem a few times over many years of baking. I hope never again. Making bread is too much fun to worry about a few bad batches.
Happy baking.
Wravershouse- Thanks for sharing your experiences with over-rising. I got a good chuckle out ofyour descriptions! I am pleased that your efforts ultimately have had a happy ending. I am sure that many here can commiserate. As I commented above, I am really annoyed that the author did not really test his formula. Thank goodness for this site, so I can both vent and get the benefit of others experiences. And I agree that a few mishaps should not diminish one's enthusiasm to make bread.
-Caryn
I had the exact same issue when i started baking levain breads from FWSY. I find his times to be way off. My kitchen runs hot. OCB is one of my go to breads. I make it often. For me, ive found my sweet spot to be 3.5 hours of bulk fermenation with four folds in the first two hours and then bag the bannetons and let them slow proof in my fridge for 8-12 hours. makes all the difference in the world. Also, ive never seen a bulk ferment with levain triple....good luck!
Brandon
Brandon- I guess the conclusion I and others have made is just that the instructions for that bread are poor! I will roughly follow your method which is much more consistent with what I have done with other breads with good results. Thanks for your comment.
-Caryn
Hi everybody,
I baked this bread today and OMG ! It is delicious! I just had it for a sandwich.
The reason I found this thread yesterday was that when I was getting the ingredients together I thought the quantity of Whole Wheat flour for the final dough as written in the book couldn’t be correct, it asks for 605g of W W flour on top of the 864g of AP flour. I’ve made many of the recipes from this book and by now I kind of know how much of each flour he asks for in the recipes. The correct quant of 16g appears only on the ingredient chart at the beginning.
I’m glad I read this before starting because it made me extra cautious at watching the dough rising during bulk fermentation, since I had to go to bed around 10pm I stuck it in the fridge and when I checked it at 5am it hadn’t risen at all! I put it in the oven with the Proof function until 9:30 am at which time it had doubled. I thought that was enough and shaped it and proof it for only about one hour and 45m, the finger test said it was proofed enough.
Anyway, I thought it strange not to find a remark about the quants error.
It turned out beautiful and the house smelled heavenly. Excuse my clumsy photo attaching, I’ve never done it before.