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SJSD reimagined as Rye w/caraway seeds

alfanso's picture
alfanso

SJSD reimagined as Rye w/caraway seeds

In the mood for a Jewish Deli style Rye with caraway seeds but not in the mood to build a rye sour.  What is a boy to do?  Well, I used the SJSD formula as my outline and changed around a few things, as I'm wont to do on more than an occasion.

I subbed out the SJSD liquid levain for an equal portion of 100% rye liquid levain and bumped up the total rye in the formula from 5% to 20%.  Dropping down an equal amount of AP flour while doing so.  I made a pretty big mix totaling ~1800g so that I could play around with 600g x 2 batards and 300g x 2 baguettes.  Following the trail blazed by the Jewish Deli Rye, the dough took a cornstarch glaze before baking and a second slathering upon completion. I couldn't help myself and had to, just had to, sprinkle a few additional caraway seeds on top as well.

Using French Folds, I found the dough to be a little sticky thanks to the rye, and didn't add the caraway seeds until the first set of Letter Folds.  All told, the dough had a 30 minute "autolyse" (w/levain mixed in), and 4 Letter Folds spaced 20 minutes apart in my 80dF kitchen.  Then whisked into the refrigerator for an overnight nap.  Divided, shaped, couched and returned to the refrigerator for another nap.  Perhaps 16 hours from start of mix to bake.  The bake was @480dF - 26 minutes for the baguettes and 30 minutes for the batards with a 2 minute venting.

The dough was quite accommodating during the divide and shaping, and even with the rye, came off the couche without incident, clean as a whistle.  As easy as pie to score.

Using a liquid levain of 190g the percentages in the dough worked out to:

  • AP flour - 75%
  • WW flour - 5%
  • Rye flour - 20%
  • Water - 73.5%
  • Salt - 2%
  • Caraway seeds - 2.3% (plus the sprinkling on top)

 April 9 - Crumb shot added.  The two baguettes were destined for dentures and gullets other than here at home, but here is the inside of the first batard.

alan

Comments

AlanG's picture
AlanG

More and more I find David's recipe approach to SD just wonderful.  I hadn't thought about doing the caraway seeds but I'll give it a try.  I tend to use as my starting point 10% rye and maybe bumping it up to 20% will give a more interesting flavor.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

flavor.  As did the caraway seeds.  Do give it a try.  If you are a fan of David's SJSD formula, and I know that you are, these only veer so far off course.  A big difference is really the starter composition and the actual bulk rise time.

The initial mix is somewhat sticky, but that disappears within the hour during the Letter Folds (I do these on the workbench rather than in the fermenting bowl so they are just Stretch and Folds by another name and process).

thanks, the other Alan G (the G is for Guy in my case.  Really - that's what my birth certificate says!)

PalwithnoovenP's picture
PalwithnoovenP

You've made a bread all your own! How can you make these better? That's some killer scoring on the baguettes! The seeds on top completes the look. May we have a peek inside the crumb? These has to be really really tasty!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Crumb shot added.  I suppose that there's always a way to make something better, but for the moment I'm really pleased with how these came out.  And they are indeed very tasty.

alan

isand66's picture
isand66

Great job Alan!  So how did the crumb come out?

Like the nice gloss from the cornstarch glaze as well.

Regards,

Ia

alfanso's picture
alfanso

got commingled with dabrownman via a quirk in posting time.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

The rye and caraway will give them that Lite rye flavor too.  Very nice indeed.

Happy baking Alan

alfanso's picture
alfanso

"I like to put the caraway on the outside of the bread as well sometimes since I'm a big fan of caraway as well."   As does my sister in law.  So I heeded the advice, happily so.

I'm taking another trip down to Lorenzo's tomorrow on my way to visit my uncle.  I think that I'll hoard some more semola rimacinata.  I noticed that they have caraway seeds in big containers also, rather than those skimpy spice rack bottles.  But I'm loaded up with a big container from elsewhere.

 

Due to a time frame overlap this was supposed to post under Ian's comment.  

Thanks, alan

alfanso's picture
alfanso

during the French Folds, I was surprised with how comfortable the actual shaping was, as was the subsequent oven spring.  Truthfully had no idea what to expect.

These are surprisingly every bit as rye-flavorful as the Greenstein rye that I made last summer was - assuming that my palate can recall that flavor.  Of course the caraway has a lot to do with that too.  I'm not a fan of the heavy French rye style.  Too dense and, well, heavy for me.  So this suits me better.

thanks, alan

Colin_Sutton's picture
Colin_Sutton

Hi Alan, great looking loaves, as always. I'm in Paris at the moment and keep walking past bakeries - I think that every decent boulanger would have to run for their money to beat the bread that you produce. Best wishes and happy baking! Colin

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Las time in Paris for me, my standard morning stop was for a croissant, maybe something else, a cafe au lait and then an espresso to dump into the coffee for some added oomph.  Of course lunch had to include a baguette with something inside of it too!

My understanding is that baguettes, by being an essential food item there, must comply with a host of requirements, including a limiting price structure.  So as skilled as they are, they may be handcuffed about what they can do to the FWS&Y in order to make it distinctive from the boulanger down the street and still make a profit.  If I am wrong about this please correct me.

We, OTOH, and free to do what we wish with our whims and desires while constructing our breads.  Regardless, the comparison is delightful to read.

alan

Ru007's picture
Ru007

as always! I really like the look of your photo's, the colors are just amazing and they really do your beautiful loaves justice.

You did french folds (those are the same as slap and folds right?) with 1800g of dough? Did you divide it or do it all in one go? Why would you do french folds instead of stretch and folds (letter folds)?

I've only ever done stretch and folds and i'd like to try french folds, but i don't know when one is supposed to be used over the other. Or is it just a preference thing?

Happy baking :)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Well, maybe three.  The rye itself lends a slight color depth. The glaze also deepens the sheen, and the yellow incandescent light over the stovetop doesn't hurt.  But these are naturally pretty dark with a deep rich color.

Yes slap and folds are interchangeable with French Folds, so I'm led to believe.  All 1800g at once.  Letter Folds are the equivalent of stretch and folds, the latter is typically done inside the mixing bowl from what I read other people say.  I do all folds (French and Letter) on the workbench.  

The difference between the two types of folds are two fold (that is my attempt at humor!).  As I don't do no-knead dough, I mix the dough inside the bowl and then dump it onto the workbench to do the French Folds.  Think of FFs as a replacement for kneading or machine mixing of dough.  Which will kickstart the development of the gluten structure and incorporate air into the dough.  Once completed the bulk ferment (rise) can begin in earnest.  

At multiple intervals during the bulk rise I'll remove the dough from the mixing bowl and then do Letter Folds to the dough.  This has the purpose of further encouraging gluten development in the dough, redistributing and realigning the dough and performing what is also called "punching down" the dough to both degas as well as redistribute the already developing gas from the fermentation.

Now the trick is to NOT have too short an interval between Letter Folds/Stretch and Folds.  The dough needs time to get used to its new alignment, to knit together the gluten strands that were just layered onto each other and to relax so that the fermentation can continue "appropriately".  My own rule is to not perform Letter Folds more than once every 20 minutes and perhaps as long as 90 minutes between folds.  All depending on what you are making and the characteristics of the dough.  Personally, I get the feeling that folks on TFL are a little too aggressive when it comes to LFs and do them more than perhaps necessary.  But still being fairly young around these parts that is my unfounded statement.

So, if that is so, then why am I doing 4 LFs in 80 minutes, you ask?  Rye is a very quickly moving fermentation, so the more rye in the formula the shorter the rise is likely to be.  And therefore, the better to have a good strong rye levain (or rye sour as some say) so that you are already introducing a well aged amount of rye into the mix.  At least that is what I think. 

And thanks again for your kind words.

alan

Ru007's picture
Ru007

I find if i do it sooner the dough is tense, and kind of fights with me. 

So, If i was to do french folds before the letter folds, i'd get more air into the dough, right? Does that help with crumb structure or oven spring? I'd also need fewer letter folds before the dough is ready.

And your attempt at humor was actually funny! Well, at least to a bread nerd like me :)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Take a look at this article from the BBGA and search for "oxygen" which will explain the value of introducing air into the mix.

Again, don't confuse the folds accomplished during the mixing/kneading of the dough and the subsequent letter folds.  They are two different animals and act independently of each other, regardless of seeming similar or carrying the "fold" word in their names.

The first is to mix the ingredients together in order to incorporate and distribute the ingredients, plus oxygenize the dough and encourage the gluten's initial development.  The second is the redistribution, degassing of the dough and also to further elongate and encourage the gluten to continue knitting its strands into a better mesh.

And don't be concerned with over-oxygenation or over-mixing the dough by hand.  Our hands are relatively ineffective at doing that.

alan 

Ru007's picture
Ru007

I think i get it! In my mind i thought the two methods were just substitutes but... east [really] is east and west is west! :) 

I had read about the negative effects of over oxygenation in anther book, but i didn't know that it had good effects (to a point) on gluten formation. 

Thanks again,

Ru