The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

easiest methods

Frank99's picture
Frank99

easiest methods

Greetings:

I just graduated from starter school and have my first successful starter almost ready/ready. My next challenge is to figure out the absolute easiest method for baking with a starter - currently using fresh ground einkorn, but I'll try white flour as well.

My einkorn is autolyzing now. I like the concept of the long autolyze so I think I'll be sticking with this step. I'm wondering if there is a simple way to just plop in some some starter after the autolyze, let it rise and then bake without multiple steps like sponges, levains, etc.

STUinlouisa's picture
STUinlouisa

Sounds like a plan to me. I'd just go for it and see what happens after all that is the way bread was essentially made for thousands of years.

Les Nightingill's picture
Les Nightingill

if you're new to sourdough, let me urge you to follow a tried and tested recipe. It sounds as if you're "winging it". You may be able to do this after getting some experience, but it will be very hard to determine what went wrong if you don't get good results. Click the "lessons" link above for proven formulae.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

use a 'no knead' recipe where time does all the work for you. Yu can just sit back on the couch and wait!

Arjon's picture
Arjon

may be to make no-knead with as few ingredients as possible (one type of flour, starter, water and salt) and to use a recipe that's hard to forget e.g. 1 2 3 which is one part starter by weight, two parts water, three parts flour. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

higher hydration to work well than what 1,2,3 will provide.  !,2,3 is 71% hydration for white bread and no knead would be in the 78% range or so if using US or Canadian flours .  If WW you would want 85% - 90% or more.

Frank99's picture
Frank99

no-knead makes things easy. i guess i should have been more exact and said also quickest. what is about the minimum amount of time required to raise dough with sourdough starter? also if you get a partial rise from starter is it ok to add in small amount of yeast as well to help things along or does that defeat the purpose of using sd starter?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

more time means more flavor.  Yeast bread being fast is fine because flavor is pretty much missing to begin with.  But SD takes time to be great and the flavor being great is what all bread should be about.  Forget the yeast.  It isn't needed unless you are schedule bound and schedule is more important that taste.  You don't have to do no knead to get great flavor in less time.  I would rather do a 10 -12 hour, one day, SD recipe rather than adding yeast.   

dobie's picture
dobie

Frank

While I am not particularly disagreeing with anything previously posted, I would like to point out that when using a hybrid yeast formula (Sourdough and Commercial, of whatever kinds), aside from flavor, the benefits of SD on the longevity of the bread (before it molds) will remain to some degree.

I have only recently started to make hybrid yeast breads (after years of keeping them seperate), and this is what I have found to be true.

If I need bread today (meaning within 12 hrs or less), for myself, hybrid is usually better than either alone.

In the long term as well as in the immediacy of taste.

dobie

dobie's picture
dobie

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prettedda's picture
prettedda

Easy and long and SD works most of the time even if you are sloppy. Retarding in the fridge ups the easy factor by letting you adjust the time to fit you schedule but increases time.

If you want quick you can make flat breads that do not depend so much on leavening or use SD as flavoring with commercial yeast.

In the end I think you will find a white flour levain bread pretty darn easy once you have made it a few times. The biggest challenge is to time the proof.

Frank99's picture
Frank99

Ok thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to steer clear of yeast. The tip about long ferment and shelf life answers a future question. I think the easiest thing to do now is have two no-knead batches refrigerated - one white flour and one einkorn. These are the two grains I'm interested in now.  Einkorn hydration is tricky but I think I'll get it after a few trials. I'd like to experiment with whole grain durum or durum/white mix soon.

So if I have a constant store of refrigerated sd dough (not starter) is it still necessary to maintain a starter or can I just use a bit of the fermenting doughs for further innoculations.

Any thoughts on going right from the refrigerator into a preheated dutch oven?

Last, I have an iron dutch oven ready for seasoning. I'm wondering if I can just wash and scrub it well and oven dry it without seasoning to use only for breads.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Last question first:

Your dutch oven (if black cast iron) will need seasoning, even if just for bread. There are tons of crevasses and pores that dough gets into and you need to almost burn before it will release. I have used black iron pans for 50+years and by far the best release is lard. Clean the pan of dirt and rust, heat evenly in a 350 oven and coat with lard, put upside down on a cookie sheet to catch the extra that drips out and let heat for about 30-60 minutes. It may smoke. Cool, wipe out excess and go from there. Periodically just clean and coat with lard on the stovetop, wipe out excess-done.

As for how to use  SD. Step back-there are so many ways that the list can go on for days. My advice is practice. Try a method,make a note of what you did because after a while, it will all blend together in your head. The important thing is to try the same method multiple times to see if it works for you.

Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day sounds like your question about storing dough in the refrigerator. Take a look at their methods-it may be helpful.

As for hybrid dough-SD and commercial yeast-2 comments. I use commercial yeast to control the speed of a bake,sometimes. The trade-off can be less SD characteristics but perhaps adapt the size of the loaves so they are consumed faster, if you are concerned about shelf life. You can still develop a good amount of flavor using hybrid. The second comment is that if your starter is mature (it takes a few months to get the lacto/yeast symbiosis) AND VERY ACTIVE, you can raise SD in no time.

I have used starter right fro the refrig, I have made overnight preferments, I have autolyzed sponged and hybridized. All methods can produce reasonable to good bread. Some is doomed from the start but that is what experience is for!

In general, I have had very little success long retarding whole wheat dough-the enzymes break it down into soup. However, WW in any form needs some form of a soak so the branny bits soak up water and don't rob it from the crumb after the bake. ANY dough needs to be kneaded to windowpane and have the hydration to support producing the gel matrix needed for that. Gluten will develop on its own. Find a method that also produces the gel-tang zhong,rye flour,higher hydration,stretch and fold,etc.

Bake some delicious fun! You are on a journey!

Frank99's picture
Frank99

Thanks that's good information. Quick followup on some points:

to get a very active starter will I need to keep a dedicated starter at room temp and feed for months or is it enough to just use a little sd from each bake?

for seasoning the oven have you ever tried flax oil- there are some people who think the high omega 3's will polymerize better than lard.

also re iron ovens: once the seasoning is done does it ever smoke while baking? when you do the seasoning coats do you bake it past the point of smoking to burn off everything?

yesterday's einkorn sd came out ridiculously good even just winging all the measurements. maybe next time i'll shoot for a wetter dough, but it seems like as long as i get a rise everything so far has come out much better than expected.

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Iron Pan seasoning- I don't work that hard! If I have a bare,naked or rusty pan that has no seasoning (newly acquired at the flea markt,perhaps), I might put a lot of effort into cleaning and seasoning. I'd probably do that one on the gas barbeque grill since I really want to get a hot seasoning on it and it will smoke. Generally,tho, I wash my pans, and season them lightly. I heat them but not to smoking when I'm doing the maintenance seasoning.

As for smoking when baking-I don't use them that way. If there is any leftover oil and you heat it to 500F for a bake, I'm sure it will smoke off.

Never used flax oil. Never had any success with any form of vegetable oil.

SD starter is "strong" when it has a very high yeast population. That is attained  the same way the earth grew billions of people-provide the ideal conditions of food,water and temperature. With SD, you need to have occasional purges (some call it discards or same as being used for a bake).This actually is like cleaning the cage and helps reduce the yeasts digestive debris. Whether you do this as room temp over a short period of time or do it using the refrig to give yourself a break over a long period is up to you. Once a starter is established, meaning it has a good balance of lactos and yeasts, you can store it I the refrig and bring it out a few days before a bake to build up its activity with 3-4 feedings before use. Long term storage, discard/feed once a week when not baking. There are as many ways to do this as there are bakers. The most important thing is to use it and figure out what works for you.

dobie's picture
dobie

I suppose there are as many ways to season and maintain a piece of cast iron as there are ways to build and maintain a starter. I have cleaned and seasoned many dozens of cast iron pans and such, using several different methods and will share my experiences. This is not to contradict the methods and successes anyone else has had, just that these are mine.

To clean a pan of rust, or to strip off the existing seasoning in its entirety to start anew, there are several things you can do (some easier, some riskier than others).

Rust removal. Steel wool, or more aggressive mechanical removal is a good place to start. A mild acid bath (50/50 white vinegar and water) is a good way to finish as it more thoroughly gets to every nook and cranny. Not too long, as it will eventually eat into the metal itself.

Also, to remove any rust, as well as any built up gunk (including all the seasoning on the metal) there are several methods possible. One is simply mechanical removal, but you would be at it forever. A side note; even the metal edge of standard cooking utensils can be enough to gouge the seasoning of a pan.

The next simplest and reasonably safe method (for the pan, anyway) is oven cleaner (a strong alkaline solution). Spray the pan with an even coat all around (using gloves, eye and breath protection of course), wrap it up in a black garbage bag and leave out in the sun for a few days. Take it out, rinse it off, repeat as necessary. Usually two or three times will do it (depending mostly on how gunked up it is). I would not do this with chrome plated pans as it will often eat the chrome off as well.

The next simplest method is high heat. 700F for an hour or two usually will do the job. All the rust, gunk and seasoning will be reduced to ash. Some folks use their WFOven for this, some use the 'self clean' cycle of their oven. Thermal shock can lead to warping, or worse, the cracking of the pan. So put cold into cold and reduce heat slowly. Personally, I no longer use this method (too risky), but it is effective.

Lastly and more elaborate, but safer on all levels (and my favorite) is electrolysis. Basically, you suspend your pan in a bath of sodium carbonate (just typical laundry washing soda, about 1/3 to 1/2 cup per 5 gal water) along with a piece of sacrificial metal (the more surface area, the better). The pan and the sacrificial should not be touching.

Don't use stainless steel or aluminum for your sacrificial as it will generate all kinds of nasty compounds into your bath and make envirormentally friendly disposal impossible. Cast iron or even plate steel makes for a fine sacrificial. I discard the exhausted bath onto a patch of English Ivy that I would love to have die off, but it only seems to make it grow stronger. Not that I would discard into my garden, but for all I know, it might not hurt.

The key is then to introduce a low voltage electrical charge. Many folks use simple car battery chargers, but I use an old computer power supply. The negative lead goes to the pan and the positive lead to the sacrificial. Not that I would recommend doing this, but I have stood barefoot on wet ground and stuck my hand into an active bath without sensing so much as an electrical tickle.

Simple pans will usually be done in a day or so. The gunked up ones I tend to check every morning and give a quick scrubbing with a nylon brush. They can take several days, depending. But they will eventually become totally bare black iron.

The one warning about electrolysis, is that it shouldn't be done indoors. There is hydrogen (think Hindenburgh) released by the process and could lead to trouble if not properly ventilated.

Once a pan is down to black iron, a good rinse, cloth dried and then oven dried (250F will do) for an hour or so, I begin the seasoning. Before addressing particular oils, let me address the process.

Obviously, you want to apply an even coat of oil over the entire surface. However, if that coating is too thick, you will end up with a slightly 3-D deckling on the surface (particulary not desirable on the cooking surface). The same thing can happen with too high a heat and not enough oil to evenly coat the bottom when cooking. This is the scourge of a properly seasoned pan to my experience. I don't think you can ever get a truly 'non-stick' surface on cast iron that way. Just my opinion.

So, once you have coated your pan down with oil, take a (lint free cotton, is best) cloth (or paper towel in a pinch), and wipe up the pan as best you can. Try to get all the oil off. Don't worry, you won't be able to. You can not over do this. I usually coat and wipe down pans that are quite warm. Apparently the iron's pores are more open, etc.

Then I put them in a cold (or slightly warm) oven and turn the heat up to 450F (convection if possible). Upside is good, can't hurt. Regardless, properly wiped down, in either position, there should be no deckling to the surface. 45 minutes after the oven gets up to temp (or so), I turn off the oven and crack the door and give it an hour or more to cool. At that point, your pan's surface should be smooth and not 'sticky'. If it's sticky, the heat wasn't high enough and/or the time not long enough.

I repeat this process at least three times before I consider a pan even minimally seasoned, and often up to six times. Then I begin to cook with it. Sauting onions might be the best, but even if you have to sacrifice a few potatos and some oil, for some reason (probably the carbs), that or pancakes seems to work very well at really establishing a good seasoning. Don't chince on the oil and keep the heat to medium high, no more (at first). After a cook or two like this, the pan is ready to add to the arsenal. Frequent use is the best technique from there.

Most people will tell you not to wash a cast iron pan with soap. I am not one of those people (regular dish soap is fine). Most people will tell you not to soak a pan in hot soapy water. Again, I am not one of those people. In fact, making sure you get off any bits that might have gotten stuck on, is most important to maintaining a smoothly finished seasoning. Soaking and a nylon brush are appropriate for that.

My understanding and experience is that the seasoning is not oil at all, rather carbon that is somehow molecularly bound with the iron. Soap and water will not remove it. I will on occasion lightly oil the bottom surface as the friction to the stove top grate can scrap off the seasoning and lead to some slight rusting. Sometimes I lightly coat (and wipe dry) a cleaned, oven dried pan with oil, but not often and it's not usually necessary.

As to oils for seasoning. I know flax seed oil has been all the rage these past few years. I have tried organic (filtered or not) and regularly processed versions and honestly, I am not a fan. In fact, my one real failure in recent years was after six rounds of seasoning a pan with flax seed oil (and it looked beautiful), on my very first cook (pancakes I believe), the seasoning just disintigrated off the pan and into the food. I have recently read that Flax is only meant to be used as the intitial (or bottom) coat. I no longer bother with it.

I have used Lard (rendered myself), Crisco, Canola, Safflower, Sunflower, Walnut and numerous other oils. I have had no such problems with any of the rest of them, just the Flax. At this point I use either Lard or Crisco with good results.

That's it in a nutshell (pretty big nut, tho). Sorry it got a little long, but hopefully there are some useful options in there. Again, just my experiences.

dobie

108 breads's picture
108 breads

This thread has gotten crazy with complexity. 

1. Easy sourdough recipe that allows one to go to work and have delicious, better-than-bakery bread. Put together the sponge and either refrigerate it overnight or let it stay on the counter and get bubbly. Once the sponge has had seven to 10 hours to get bubbly, mix the dough. Do four stretch and folds over an hour to a two-hour period. Then put in the fridge for approximately 24 hours. After that, bake at 470 to 500 degrees (preheat oven for one hour) for 45 to 55 minutes (there's a few factors relevant). Voila - lovely bread. 

2. Buy a baking stone and a la cloche if you fear the dutch oven. These do not need seasoning and hardly need cleaning.

dobie's picture
dobie

108 breads

No so crazy or complex, I think. It's only one step and then another after all. Perhaps, just not to your liking.

dobie

anhtran313's picture
anhtran313

I have the same problem with Frank99 and found this topic. I will try all of your advices. Thank you all !