January 29, 2016 - 12:18am
puzzle about degassing of dough
dear all,
Being an amateur, I'm wondering if a dough that hasn't degassed requires less time for second proofing than a dough that has been degassed? My logic is that since most of the expanded dough volume would be intact if it is not degassed, less time should be needed for it to reach the double original volume size.
My another question that extends logically from this is: would a dough that has been degassed have higher risk of overproofing (we might easily forget the time and let the air bubbles accumulates inside the dough beyond the optimal size?)
And is stretch and fold considered degassing? I did it a few times to my dough but I still can feel airs trapped inside my dough.
Thank you!
Liming
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Hi Liming,
I'm fairly new at bread baking too, so as a fellow newbie here's what I think. (I'm open to being corrected :))
Firstly, when you say that the dough hasn't been degassed, do you mean it just hasn't been fully punched down?
I've just read the bread bakers apprentice and two of the four reasons for degassing are 1) releasing CO2 which would otherwise choke the yeast and 2) redistributing nutrients which triggers a new feeding cycle. Based on this, I would say that the second bulk rise might take longer the less the dough is degassed. I've never timed it or anything though.
A set of stretch and folds would achieve degassing. Even is there is still air in the dough (which is desirable for certain types of bread like ciabatta etc), it does not mean that the dough has not been degassed to some extent.
Hope this helps.
Thanks, it makes sense to me
Liming
Stretch and fold is normally done long before there is any appreciable rise, so its effect on the gases in the dough are pretty insignificant.
Liming
I think Les and rw both bring up good points.
Oxygenation and the redistribution of sugars to the yeast population in the dough are important considerations in any manipulation.
And while (depending on the dough) you might be seeing the 'bubbles of life' when you do your Stretch and Folds, as Les says, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think of it as laying down the understructure of the crumb.
Of course, the type of bread and crumb you are going for would affect your decision about how aggressive to be with whichever of the three basic forms (that I'm aware of) of Stretch and Folds that you choose to employ.
Here is a link to (our fellow TFLian) alan's (alfonso) video on youtube about making 'Bouabsa style Baguettes'. It includes a very good demonstration of a particular French Slap & Fold technique that you might find interesting.
I think the whole video is worth watching, but if you go to about 14 minutes in, you'll find the particular part I'm referring to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYvORu_oLYc
Let me know what you think.
dobie
hi dobie, thanks for your link. the video is great as it let me know that super big holes are not only achieved by sourdough yeast, in fact commercial instant yeast can do that too. The kneading and long fermentation plays a very important role here.
i think the french slap and fold technique is a great method to develop gluten, but the only problem for me is that is takes too much time and labour from me, the video suggested 300 slaps! currently im doing no knead, with only 3 stretch and folds. but i think i can be flexible and incorporate a mini version of slap and folds, say doing a 10 - 15 slaps then rounding then resting, and then 3 stretch and folds, followed by tension pull and the second proofing.
Cheers
Liming
type of infirmity such as arthritis, or some other type of musculoskeletal challenge, the French slap and fold technique is actually not that laborious. I actually find it to be easier on my elbows and wrists than the push-turn-fold style of kneading. It will, however, get your heart rate up once you really get into it - it's kind of fun, actually, to see a sticky pile of glue turn into a nice smooth dough right before your eyes (hands). Also, once you really break into your rhythm, each slap/fold cycle takes about 3 seconds, so it doesn't take long at all to get up to 300.
--Mike
thanks Mike, I just did a 300 slaps on my dough for about 15 mintues or so. Yes indeed it is fun, and more importantly, it's a great stress relief tool! :)
Stretch and fold is much easier on a dough that has been slapped.
Liming
Liming
I wish I could blame the usual forum gremlins for my missing post of last night, but I think the only gremlins were in my mind and I probably closed out without sending it. Hey, it was late.
One of the main things that I learned from alan's video and many of his other posts on this forum, is to use all the techniques in your toolbox to make the dough cycles work for your intent (as well as schedule).
Particularly when I'm working with a wet and sloppy dough, it's not uncommon for me to use all three S&F methods.
First some pull and folds at quarter turns in the bowl, then perhaps a few minutes of French Slap&Fs and finally, some countertop letter style S&Fs.
But I agree with you and Mike, the few times I have done the 300 or so Slap and Folds, it is fairly quick and somewhat cathartic in practice. It doesn't seem that way when I start, but ends up being so at the end.
Further proof that the longest jouney begins with a single step.
dobie
hi Dobie,
I've learned somewhere that the slap and fold has to be performed before (not after) bulk fermentation. Then does it mean I couldn't slap and fold my no knead dough, if my long autolyse after the initial mixing can be considered a bulk fermentation?
Nonetheless, I did find the dough more elastic if I slap and fold them than if I didn't, both with the no knead method.
There isn't rigid rules in bread baking, isn't it?
Cheers
Liming
Liming
I think you are right, that there are no (or at least few) hard and fast rules about any of it. There is little (if any) 'has to' required.
Slap and fold, stretch and fold, anytime you think worthwhile. Even if you break the rules, you might define new ones. Don't be afraid to color outside of the lines.
I mean this most kindly. Relax, have fun.
Believe me, I know how precious it gets, but it is (after all) just a little flour and just a little time.
There is always tomorrow and all the potential that it brings. But your knowledge is brought to you by your experiences of yesterday.
So, to the sides of yesterday and tomorrow, there is only today, this day. Only the Now.
Zen and the art of Dough.
Play and have fun. What could possibly go wrong?
At worst, it will be an edible education.
Just some rules that I try to live and bake by.
dobie
I agree that there are a few hard and fast "rules" (like never overheat your yeast or culture), a lot of "firm guidelines" (like like hydration usually equals bigger holes), and a whole gestalt of vibes, impressions, and experience when it comes to breadmaking. But one of things that makes all this possible is the living, breathing entity of the dough itself. The stuff is remarkable! I've left my sourdough (unintentionally) in the back of the fridge for as high as five months, and after a couple feedings it's humming along like always. And check out David Snyder's post about a bread he was making - he had a glitch in his daily routine and didn't get back to the bread as soon as he wanted, but it still came out great.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43809/italian-san-joaquin-sourdough-most-forgiving-bread
--Mike
thanks Mike, that's a really forgiving piece of bread. :D
Liming
Yes Mike
I agree. Dough is amazing stuff. Who knows what might be possible?
My little Zen rant is really just a synopsis of what I try to remind myself of everytime I build (actually in all life's persuits). The point being to not hold too dearly to what has brought me success in the past, as I might miss the future.
I remember bumping into David's SJSD tale a bit ago, and it definetly had an impact on me.
I have recently read of someone on TFL proofing at temps up to 130F. You know I'm gonna have to try this, but of course it goes against everything I've ever been told about yeast. Regardless, it's just a little flour and time.
dobie
Missed that
I can imagine it might help if you're trying to rip voids in the crumb but I'm having a hard time imagining what other benefits might ensue. I assume there were some?
Not sure Jon
Just hoping I dreamed it.
dobie
Give me a prod if you trip over it again, would you? I'm always interested in radical suggestions.
Jon
I've been searching a bit, but so far nothing. Maybe I did dream it (that's possible).
Somewhere in the back of my mind tho, is the supposed fact that yeast doesn't actually die until about 135F, altho it's growth is retarded after 115-120F. Perhaps a brief experiment is in order (and why we have dreams).
dobie
130°F is only 54°C and 50°C is commonly recommended as a final, though not bulk, proofing temperature. You probably didn't dream it.
My top oven heats to 50°C with just the internal light on and that's where I used to do the final proof, until I discovered that I got better results proofing at room temperature or in the fridge.
hi joh and dobbie, is there a way to speed up the second proofing of my dough? my sourdough has 10% starter but seems to take too long for the second rise, can i add extra commercial yeast to the dough before final shaping (but after bulk fermentation) ? if yes, do i have to add extra water to dissolve it ?
thanks!
liming
...doesn't sound like much.
I don't use a levain but I think it's normal to use more than that. Someone who knows what they're talking about will probably put us both right soon.
After bulk proving is way to late in the process to add more yeast. You'd have to work the dough too much, more than once, to get it sufficiently distributed to do any good.
oops, sorry Jon
I didn't mean to contradict you. We were apparently responding at the same time.
But I agree, I would not over work the dough to try and incorporate the dry yeast. Just take what you get for what it's worth as an experiment. Altho, odd as it was, I did not find it objectionable.
Regarding a levain, I don't know if this is common practice or not but this is what I do. Preface to say, my fridged starter is usually fed every week or two at most, so it's pretty strong. I take it out of the fridge to warm at room temp for an hour or three and then give it a proper feed.
Once it has doubled (OK, maybe 2/3 doubled) in 4-5 hours, I pour off what I need for my dough and actually consider that my 'levain'. The remainder goes back in the fridge as my 'starter (or mother starter, or whatever). So, they are actually, very much the same product. I think the only real difference from traditional 'levain builds' (other than that I don't quite let it quite get to a 'collapsed state') is that it saves me a container to wash (but I could be wrong). Anyway, that's how I've been doing it so far and it seems to work quite well.
As to 10% starter, I'll bet we'll be hearing from dbm about that shortly. Personally, I have used considerably less and considerably more at times and have found that the less takes longer to proof and results in a more 'sour' dough, and the more used, the less time to proof and the sweeter the dough, so to speak.
But please, I am no expert as to the science of what is really happening, nor if others experience the same effects I do. Thus, the opening for dabrownman (and the rest of the cast).
dobie
What you describe is what I'd expect if the yeast wasn't well distributed. Apparently you weren't expecting it to be much good, either.
liming
Well, of course, higher temps.
But just a couple of traditional points about that and one that is just my experience.
One is that apparently, SD proof temps between 68 and 78F seem to be more ideal for a 'less sour' SD bread. As the temp rises (and I've only previously used up to 93F), the sour increases. My experiences bear this out and in fact are the main controls I exert on 'sour' flavor (altho, there are other dynamics to consider as well).
Second would be that often SDough will normally be longer to proof than most commercial yeast doughs.
Third (and this is by no means meant to be definitive), on occasion I have added dry commercial yeast (with no additional water) to a properly bulk proofed sourdough (that I would have expected to work well on its own, given the appropriate time) just because schedules change and I needed a boost.
The result I found was an oddly open crumbed bread. It seems that wherever the little dust of dry yeast was incoporated into the pre-shaping (and slightly intermixed in the final shaping and tensioning), there was a larger hole to the crumb. It wasn't the same as a day long or three day bulk proofed dough (the larger holes were more localized), but it was quite nice, tho different.
Better than that technique I would suspect (tho, haven't yet tried it), would be to incorporate the commercial yeast dust in a final Stretch and Fold, soon before, if not just before, an overnight retard in the fridge.
I don't know. It's all fluid. But there is no inherent harm in mixing yeast sources. It's just a matter of what works given the set of circumstances. Short to long, I wouldn't hesitate to experiment.
dobie
Jon
Glad to hear that. I thought I might have stripped a gear. I will definitely be experimenting in that regard.
dobie
...but I found the gluten structure seemed more delicate when proofing at a higher temperature. I'm guessing that the more rapid expansion causes some tearing.
I got the impression studies have shown that yeast activity drops to zero above 36℃. For example, see :
Modelling of Growth of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and Candida milleri in Response to Process Parameters of Sourdough Fermentation. Michael G. Gänzle, Michaela Ehmann, and Walter P. Hammes (Applied & Environmental Microbiology, July 1998, vol. 64 no. 7, 2616-2623)
Did you check your oven was actually at 50C? Of course, it would take a while for the dough to warm above 36C. Might be why it rose better at lower temps? :)
This is going back a while but, as I recall it, I'd read that bulk fermentation should take place at around 25°C but to go to 50°C, perhaps it was up to 50°C, for the final proofing. I was initially unaware that with the light on and no temperature set the oven would heat to 50°, so I used to set the temperature manually. It was only after RTFMing that I stopped doing that.
I had checked both ovens against a thermometer but at temperatures of 200°C and above, where they were both spot on.
On yeast fermentation, the book I quote from above, How Baking Works, says:
"Yeast is dormant at 32°-34°F (0°-1°C) and begins to be quite active starting at about 50°F (10°C). As dough temperature rises above this, the rate of yeast fermentation increases. By about 120°F (50°C), fermentation slows, because yeast cells begin to die. Fermentation essentially stops at 140°F (60°C), when most yeast cells are dead (these temperatures are estimates only; actual temperatures depend on the dough formula and on the strain of yeast in question). Optimum fermentation is often given as about 78°-82°F (25°-28°C)."
So 50°C would seem to be about as high as you'd want to go on the final proof and may be several degrees higher still.
The differences in strain of yeast, I use Saccharomyces cerevisiae, not the strains mentioned in the paper you link to, could explain the apparent contradictions.
But aren't we saying the same thing? Yeast cells begin to die at this temperature which, strictly speaking, isn't necessary for proofing so aren't you pre-empting what happens when you bake the dough? Why use extra energy to do what you're going to repeat in a little while anyway? And, yes, you're right, we're talking about different yeasts - I was referring to a sourdough culture not baker's yeast.
My comment ended up as a comment to the OP.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/344237#comment-344237
Pretty much. It seems that you can do the final prove at temperatures of up to 50°C but, unless you're in a hurry, there's little point in doing so as proofing at a lower temperature produces better results anyway. Which is why I now prove at ambient temperatures