December 27, 2015 - 12:19pm
Whole Wheat & Rye Round Loaf (Help)
I've made a number of loaves - all with decent taste, but a real dense crumb. I've varied some things to no avail. Knowing I needed advice, this last run through I took exacting notes. Here's what I tried (with pictures):
9:00 am fed starter 1/2 c flour and 1/2 c H20 (starter was stored in fridge and feed weekly - it's the consistency of pudding, and if left on the counter does get very bubbly over the course of a day.)Took 1c starter and mixed with 1c whole wheat flour, 1/2c rye flour and 1-1/4c H2O. Let stand until bubbly and very active.4:00 pm added 2c bread flour and 2tsp salt. Dough was too dry, added 1/4c water. Kneeded until mixed. About 5 mins. stretch and fold every 20 mins for 2 hours6:00 pm turned dough out of bowl. Shaped into round loaf and let proof for 1 hr. Slashed square into top. Put into 450°F degree oven on pizza stone. Splashed a cup of water on second pan before putting bread in oven. Baked with steam for 15 minutes. Removed steam pan. Lowered temp to 400°F and baked until temp read 405°F (~55 mins more - total baking time of 70 mins). Here's the bread proofing.
It's pretty flat. There was very little structure to the bread. 
The bread is dense with good flavor (like every other loaf I've made). I'd like it to be a little springy-er, or more poofy (these are excellent descriptors ;-) ). 
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Sorry, I have more questions than answers. Do you have a scale, and do you have a container with straight sides to proof the dough. If you have a scale, it will be easy to determine hydration, and a straight sided container will help you determine when the bulk fermentation is done. Those two factors play major role in avoiding a dense crumb. I am not familiar with your recipe, but I would start by substituting white for fit the rye, since white week give more shooting, once you have gotten your routine back, you can gradually increase the rye. With the straight sided container you should have a better judge of when the dough has doubled, which is more important than time
Check the dough before baking to tell whether it has risen sufficiently. Use the finger poke test. With forefinger and middle finger gently push into the dough about a quarter to half inch and release. If the indentation quickly goes away, the dough is not ready for the oven, if the indentation very slowly goes away, it is ready.
Ford
I got a scale over christmas, but do not have a container with straight sides.
I've made the same recipe without the rye (sub whole wheat flour instead) with the same results.
Are you suspecting the bulk fermentation was too long or too short? I tried the stretch and fold for the bulk fermentation (~2 hrs, but with that method I couldn't have identified if it doubled in volume). I autolysed the bread from 9 am to 4 pm, which gave the yeast time to become active.
Ford - I did the finger test (took a picture with 2 indents). I probably left the final rise too long, because those indents never went away.
MKEBaker and Ford
You folks bring up a good point and question.
I read a post recently where it was said that if the indent remained, it was underproofed and if it sprung back completely it was overproofed. But Ford, if I'm reading you right, you're saying quite the opposite.
At the time, that seemed counter-intuitive to me. But what I did take away from that post was that if it sprang back, but not quite all the way, it was ready. So far, following that advice has served me well.
So I've been leaning towards just keeping an eye (and a finger) on it and trying to get a feel for when it's ready. Very scientific, I know. But while time, temp and volume are indicators, they are only that (I've found), and a poke is best. At least it works better for me.
I am by no means an expert on this and am just curious as to which way it actually goes? I will try to pay better attention to the question at my next bake. But let me know what you think.
Thanks
dobie
ps - MKEBaker, good about the scale.
MKE, yes, I think that the bulk fermentation and final proof were not right. Unfortunately, time is not a good indicator, volume on the other hand is a great indicator. If you let it double in size for bulk ferment then let it increase 75 to 85 % in final proof, it should be at the optimum. Try using a plastic pitcher for bulk fermentation, use a rubber band to mark the starting height, then keep checking to it doubles. Unfortunately, there is no foolproof method for final proof. I have trouble with the finger poke test, to me the amount of spiringback varies with different recipes, though if you do the same recipe enough I would think you might get more consistent feedback from the poke test. Use the scale to measure your ingredients, it will be much more consistent
9 am mixed 225 g WW flour. 300 g water. 150 g starter. Starter was fed the day previous and left on the counter overnight. Starter is fed 1/2 c flour & 1/2 C h20.
9 pm added 225 g bread flour. kneeded in kitchen aid mixer for 5 mins. very sticky. added 50 g more bread flour mixed another 3 mins. put in pitcher. Ran out of time and put in fridge overnight. After overnight rise, dough did reach the double mark on my pitcher.
9 am took out of fridge. Formed into round loaf and left to proof for 3 hours - it was very slow to warm up. 12 pm put bread in 425F oven with steam. baked 15 mins with steam and 45 without. (found out my digital thermometer is broken and loves the temp 170 - would not read anything higher).
This loaf was noticeable spongier, with a softer interior, and it had a good oven spring. However, it was still flat and squatty. Any ideas on improving further?
So I'm determined to keep trying. I thoroughly enjoy the bread, I just always want it to be better than the previous loaf.
On Wed, I mixed a pre-ferment out of 125g of Bread flour + 125g of WW flour + 25g Rye flour + 200g Water + 150g of starter. In a separate bowl I mixed 400g of Bread flour + 250g WW flour + 75g Rye flour + 500g Water + 15g salt + 15g vital wheat gluten. These both went in the fridge for 24 hrs.
Thursday, I pulled both from the fridge at 5 pm. Let sit for 2 hours to warm up. At 7 pm, I kneaded the pre-ferment and autolyse together in a kitchen aid mixer. I left to ferment until 10:00 pm, with 1 stretch & fold around 9 pm. The dough was very wet and sticky (@ 70% hydration). The bulk fermentation was slow and didn't double in size. I turned the dough onto a baking liner about 10:00 pm, and formed into a elongated round loaf (I tried for 2 loaves, but the dough was too sticky to get a knife through). I struggled to form the loaf, because it was so wet. The dough was the viscosity of cold honey. I left it to proof about an hour. Baking at 425F for 15 mins with steam and at 375F for 45 mins without steam. Here's a picture of the loaf and crumb.
I need help making the loaf stand up more. How do you guys get a good vertical structure to your loaf? This is definitely more open, and the flavor is wonderful. I would like to get a better oven spring, and a taller, narrower loaf.
Any help is appreciated.
Hi MKE,
Regardless of the issues you are experiencing, the loaf in the last picture is a thing of beauty. It just needs some additional TLC.
See what others say and then decide which roads to travel.
alan
Thank you for the pointers! I was trying a few things I've read on here and only getting marginal results. I tried the gluten because my bread wad lacking structure. But that was a bad choice.
I'm checking out the YouTube series by Jeffrey Hamelman now. I definitely have some work to do on my technique.
Thanks again!
It sounds to me like your starter is losing its 'oomph'. Mine did that too and some of my doughs ended up sort of flat and sticky, without that strong, stretchy spring to them anymore. I took some of my starter and built a new one over a couple of days, feeding every 12 hours (100% hydration). After a couple of feedings it bubbled up from 1 liter to 4 overnight! It was beautiful, pillowy and stringy, and subsequent doughs proofed like a dream.
Might be worth a try...
Everything that changed:
The dough had much better oven spring, and a good texture. However, the texture here was uneven. The area around the crust throughout the loaf was nice and open, but the center of the loaf was not so much (not dense, but not open). Anyone have some suggestions to making a more even loaf of bread? What part of my shaping technique can I work on?
Recipe: