November 27, 2015 - 10:26am
Epoxy Experiment
The goal is 50% Whole Grain flour, 50% Bread flour boule.
I haven't found a lot of real 'hands on' information on Epoxy process and I have one question that I would really prefer not to guess on.
How far do I develop the gluten in the Bread flour component before Epoxying with the Whole Grain component. All the way, half way or otherwise?
If all the way, will they really blend together, is my worry? I've got a lot invested in this (sprouting, drying, milling) and don't want to mess up with a rookie mistake.
Thanks,
dobie
Share
I'm not too familiar with this process Dobie. TBH its the first time I've heard of it. But an idea did cross my mind and I hope I don't sound too stupid.
Autolyse the gluten flour so the gluten gets off to a good start then add the non gluten flour and proceed as normal.
Abe
That is a good suggestion, nothing stupid about it.
I only heard of the Epoxy process from Mini Oven yesterday (maybe the day before, it's been a bit of a whirlwind lately).
I was reviewing my process thru the 'Barley Bread Experiment' and the thought crossed my mind that if I developed the gluten in the Bread flour component and did an extended autolyse of the Barley (Whole Grain) component and then combined them, it might result in a lighter crumb (so Girl would eat it).
I forget where I posted the question about using the two techniques to each flour's advantage and then combining the resulting semi-doughs, but shortly Mini spoke up and said 'Epoxy method, Reinhart'.
So I researched it as best I could (given that it was Thanksgiving and all) and decided that since today was the day for my next attempt at the (dabrownman inspired) Sprouted 4 Grain Sourdough Boule, why not give 'Epoxy' a try?
I asked the question all too late (stupid me). I was already well into the process when the thought crossed my mind 'hey, this might not work'. But you know, there comes the time when you gotta place your bets, and that's what I did, opting for the 'greater gluten development' option.
I was thinking that the enzymes were degrading the gluten structure in extended fermentation. I wanted the whole grain flour (particulary the bran) to have an extended autolyse to reduce the Phytic acid.
So, that's where I am at the moment. The whole grain flour has been autolyzing for about 18 hrs at room temp and smells wonderful. The Bread flour/starter part is about 3 hrs old and has been stretched and folded to it's glutenous content.
At the moment, it is calling my name and I am just about to do the 'Epoxy' blend.
I will let you know how it comes out.
Thank you
dobie
Abe
Much to my surprise, it has worked out well so far.
If I have done anything smart so far in this process, it was to look at the autolyse of the Whole Grain flour, and tho at 100% hydration, it appeared to be more like a typical 65% hydration white wheat flour dough. So I made the Bread flour component at 65% hydration.
They blended together rather easily (by lobster claw pinch or whatever it's called). I have it in a banneton (plastic salad bowl) now, well coated in rice flour and will let it proof an hour or two before it goes into the fridge for the night.
We'll see what happens tomorrow.
Thank for looking.
dobie
This book discusses the epoxy method at length, but there are posts on this forum that will give you help also. Just do a search.
You can simply mix ALL the flour/water/salt (minus the starter) the night before, then just add the starter in the morning.
I do this all the time.
You mix your whole grain and bread flour together (along with salt) and give the whole thing an extended autolyse. Don't try to develop any gluten -- just mix it to a rough, but even incorporation of ingredients. Because the mixture sits for so long (at least 12 hours) the salt does not inhibit the effect of the autolyse. In fact, it helps to prevent too much enzymatic activity and wild fermentation that might take place over the long hours. Cold temps help as well (I usually mix up my "pre-dough" the afternoon of the day prior, refrigerate it, then take it out and lay it on the counter before I go to sleep to slowly come to room temp overnight). Then just add your starter in the morning and you're good to go.
You get a very long "soak" for the whole grain, but don't have to worry about trying to combine 2 different "doughs" into some sort of epoxy. By morning, your combined pre-dough will be fully developed with wonderful gluten and full hydration of the whole grain. The starter is easy to mix in and that's when your actual fermentation begins.
This is a much simpler process than the epoxy method, but just as effective, if not more so. Give it a try.
Cheers!
Trevor J. Wilson
Hi Trevor
Your approach is so simple, it just might work.
Based on your testimony, I imagine that it would and most likely I will try it in a week or two (there is a list after all).
This is the first autolyse (long or short) to which I have added any salt at all and I did so for exactly the reasons you describe.
Thank you so much for the insight.
dobie
Trevor
I would like to ask you a follow up question.
Do you try to match the hydration of the starter (as added later) to the hydration of the extended autolyse pre-dough, or does it not matter much?
The more I think about your approach, the more I like it and the more convinced I am that I will soon give it a go.
Thanks
dobie
No need to match hydration. If you're making a reasonably soft dough, then mixing in either a stiff or liquid starter is not a problem. If you're making a stiff dough, however, then you're better off making a liquid starter -- trying to add stiff starter to stiff fully developed dough is difficult and can result in tearing.
BTW, these suggestions are for hand mixing. If you're using a mixer, then you have to be very careful not to damage the dough when you add in the starter.
Cheers!
MichaelH
I appreciate your response.
As Mini Oven and you have both suggested, I did that search.
I don't how many dozen hits I have looked at on TFL alone, but I have yet to find one that really gives a 'hands on' explaination.
I did read PR's Whole Grain Breads, but it was quite a few years ago and at that the time I was seeking much more basic info, which he provided well.
As I've gone thru this exploration of Epoxy, I have come to remember reading about it in WGB, but at that time it was way over my head. But I do remember about the 'lobster claw' pinch and (whatever it's called), which was very helpful.
But in PR's youtube lectures, while he mentions Epoxy (so that it comes up in my search), there is no verbal or visual demonstration provided (that I have found yet). That is also my experience searching TFL for the same. I'm sure it exists, I just haven't found it yet.
At a certain point, I have come to realize, there is only so much time to expend on fruitless searches, and sooner or later, one just has to bake. Devil be damned.
If you can steer me in the right direction, I would more than appreciate it.
Thanks again,
dobie
Stu
Thank you very much for that.
I guess between what I remembered from reading years ago and the bits and pieces I was able to find online recently, I got it reasonably clear.
What you describe is essentially, near exactly what I did.
I just took the banneton (plastic bowl) out of the fridge and lit the oven. The dough looks wonderful and I actually have high hopes for reasonable success. We'll see.
I will post the recipe and process with pics shortly, good or bad.
Thank you (and everyone else) for all the help.
dobie
This is my attempt at a Sprouted 4 Grain Sourdough Boule (dabrownman inspired) using a variation of Peter Reinhart's Epoxy method.
First a few apologies.
I am sorry that this is a pretty convoluted and not very elegant recipe. I was just building it by the seat of my pants and wanted to keep my goal percentages accurate.
I'm sorry if the pics are less than sharp and the color balance is off. They were all hand held and in ambient light. I'm also sorry they are not embedded and are just links, but that's all I can do right now.
And last (but not least), I would like to apologize to Peter Reinhart and dabrownman for so bastardizing their otherwise sound procedures.
Here then, are all the gory details; the good, the bad and the ugly (if you can stand it).
Sprouted 4 Grain Sourdough Epoxy Experiment
I sprouted Barley, Rye, Hard Red Winter wheat and Hard White wheat berries to chit (perhaps a little beyond). I dehydrated them, then milled them.
Total sprouted flour was 119g, equal parts of each grain.
I then milled another 28g unsprouted barley (I don't know why) and another 91g unsprouted Red Hard Winter and Hard White wheat (in equal proportions) for a total of another 119g whole grain flour.
So, whole grain flour is 238g (half of which is sprouted) and is 1/2 the total flour weight. Within that total, barley is 56g, half sprouted, half not. I sifted 10g of bran from the combined whole grain flours.
The remaining recipe flour is 238g Bread flour for a 476g flour total . Salt is 8g total (about 1.7%).
The total water is 415g for a final hydration of 87%. Final dough is about 899g (minus a little lost to bowls and fingers along the way).
Soaker 1: (ok, it's technically a levain, but it's about the 'soak' and the starter is only there as an acid to help reduce Phytic acid)
To the 10g of bran, I added 10g active starter (starter is 100% hydration, Bread flour) and 30g water and left at room temp about 18 hrs.
Soaker 2: To the remaining 228g whole grain flour I added 228g water and 6g salt and let it sit at room temp for 18 hrs.
Bread Flour Levain (or pre-dough): I built this about 15 hrs into the Soakers (shortly after I posted my initial question). I added 102g of water to 100g of starter with 183g Bread flour and 2g salt (for a 65% pre-dough hydration).
The reason for 65% is that even tho Soaker 2 is 100% hydration, being of whole grain flour, it absorbed water to the point it looked like about a 65% Bread flour dough. Since I wanted to Epoxy them together, I wanted their consistancy to be somewhat similar. I'm glad I did that.
I mixed and kneaded on the hook of a KitchenAid at speed 2 for about 5 minutes.
I let it rest about 30 min and then did Stretch and Folds every 30 min for 2 hrs. After the fourth S&F I gave it a few Slap and Folds, then let it rest another 30 min. The gluten was well developed.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperPreDouSm_zpsh3itt3ax.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=13
Then I put Soaker 1 in a bowl and started adding little chunks of Soaker 2 and the pre-dough Bread flour levain. I then did the pinch and fold to incorporate it all. It was surprisingly fast and easy.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperSoaker1Sm_zpsdac3ggha.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=11
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperSoaker2Sm_zpsbvczzo7f.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=12
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperPreEpoxSm_zpskpc3iyex.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=10
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperPostEpoxySm_zpspzctytrn.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=9
I then did one S&F, just so I could lay down some raw sprouts (same grains, about 56g). I then folded it up, put down some bench flour and tensioned it as a ball.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperFinDouFormSm_zpsj2iohpha.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=8
Then into a lightly oiled, generously rice flour dusted bowl and covered. I let it proof for about 2 hrs at room temp and then into the fridge for about 12 hrs.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperFinDouBowlSm_zpsqlwn8ifv.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=7
Out of the fridge, inverted on to parchement paper, scored and into a cold Dutch Oven (altho the lid was preheated) and then into a 525F oven which I turned down to 475F.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperFinRiseSm_zpsy4db1wga.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=6
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperFinDouScoreSm_zpshuxcza6j.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1...
After 15 min, I removed the DO lid and reduced oven to 435F with convection on.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperBake1Sm_zps8vvwxg1d.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=4
After another 15 min, out of the DO and finished on an upper rack for 10 min at 400F.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperBake2TopSm_zpsvdqd6f4s.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=3
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperBake2BotSm_zpsadvpzgft.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=2
I didn't take an internal temp as I didn't want to poke a hole in it and alter the further baking as it cools. I am quite confident it was baked to somewhere between 200 and 210F.
Now the hard part, resisting the urge to cut into it for at least 12 hrs. I will post a crumb shot tomorrow.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperBake3TopSm_zpsmunuuetv.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1
I think it was properly proofed as the poke test pushed back, but not quite all the way. The oven spring was decent as well.
I don't know why I scored it the way I did, but I now realize that by scoring at more or less the outer edge, the oven spring shaped the loaf outwards, not upwards, which I would have preferred. Live and learn. I did get a pretty decent ear tho (for me anyway).
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperBake3EarSm_zpskxlml3gf.jpg.html?filters[user]=144323157&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0
I feel it was a fairly successful bake, even without tasting it or seeing the crumb yet.
Thank you again (everyone) for all the help, input and ideas for the future.
dobie
Here is the link.
http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/baguette/media/20151127EpoxyExperCrumbLg_zpsja6zmm0w.jpg.html
One thing this bread is not lacking is flavor. The sour is mild as I expected, the reduced salt is good and it is actually quite sweet. If I didn't know any better, I would have guessed it had molasses in it.
dobie
with this one and some I don't understand why you are doing them. The first levain Is a weird one that I don't understand. 10 g of starter at 100% hydration starter, mixed with 10 g of sifted out bran (half sprouted and half non sprouted) and 30 g of water and then left to sit out foe for 18 hours. I've never heard of anyone doing that before - we love new stuff!.
It is a tiny amount as far as levains go and I would guess that the poor wee beasties have to be starving with such little food to eat for so much starter (the bran is only 20% starch), for so long. I could see say, 1 g of starter for 10 g of bran for 12 hours. And why the 233% hydration? Another really new and interesting thing. I'm thinking a super high hydration like that would make things go faster and the poor wee beasties would be .......starving for even longer? I'm trying to figure out what you were trying to accomplish - more sour? Well that's not right because you though the bread would be less sour . so I am really off track. Very interesting indeed.
That is one long autolyse for the whole grains and since the salt doesn't sloe down enzymes like it does the wee beasties,Normally i would chuck an autolyse like this one in the fridge once it got to the 6-8 hour mark or so to slow the enzymes down I'm guessing that is where all of the sweet taste is coming from ? Those enzyme were breaking down the starch for long time and the wee beasties couldn't eat it all. Bet that helped the browning too. PR thinks that you don't even have to autolyse sprouted grains because they a e already soaked for 24 hours and the enzymes have already started down the starch in the grain to a great degree. One thing is for sure, that poor starving bran levain had plenty to eat when it hit the mi.
The other levain was young so that would lead to less sour too.
The other thing is the hydration. For a bread like this, 50% whole grain with half of that sprouted, i would have been at about 80% hydration since the sprouted grain takes less water. You really pushed it.at 87%. I am amazed at what a nice looking, open crumb you got. Normally I don't ever worry about protease enzymes breaking down the gluten and have never had a problem in that regard but with the protease enzymes working so long in that autolyse and the hydration being so wet, I would have have' Frisbee worries' for sure. Your loaf isn't as proud a loaf as one could imagine but it certainly isn't a Frisbee either, Just goes to show you how little we really need to worry about protease and gluten degradation.
It is nice to see you experimenting and pushing the limits - the fun part about bread baking if you ask me. You never know what will result until you do.... but this one was especially interesting, at least for me, and a fine looking and tasting bread the result. You also got a slashing experiment in the mix too:-)
Well done and happy baking dobie
Hi dabrownman
I hope Thanksgiving went well for you.
My thinking with the Soaker 1 (really a bran levain) was only to introduce some acid to the bran and water mix. I did this because I've heard about how bad Phytic acid is for you and that the majority of it is in the bran.
I've heard some say it only needs to be hydrated for anywhere from 2-7 hours (depending on who's talking) to reduce Phytic acid considerably.
The more scientific reports I've read tend to go to the 24 hr mark, with several saying that without an acid component, there is not significant reduction even then. To be sure, I don't know anything for sure.
The 233% hydration of that levain only came about because the bran was thirsty. The 10g of starter was only because I failed miserably at adding 2g (my original intent). But I was sure that this little levain would not have any significanse to the sour or leveaning of the final bread.
My goals for this experimental dough were that it had to be 50% whole grain flour (with half of that sprouted), with 50% Bread flour. Also that I would try some method of Epoxy and that in the end it should resemble 'bread'. Everything else would fall into place as it might.
The hydration would be whatever it would be. I was very surprised when I did the math at the end to find out it was 87%.
The 'sour' could be whatever it would be. I only wanted to accurately predict it once the dough was built (I succeeded on that point).
Truth be told, I was only planning Soakers 1 & 2 to run 10-12 hrs. But extended Thanksgiving guests and uncertainty led it to be 18 hrs.
I also figured the Bread flour levain (pre-dough in this case) would not add any significant strong sour. As you said, too young.
I certainly had Frisbee Fear as well. But I figured (worst case senario) what am out? Just a little time and grain.
My thinking was that Soaker 2's enzymic activity would provide mass amounts of food for the 'beasties' in the pre-dough Bread flour Levain, yet wouldn't have too much opportunity to degraded the gluten structure of that Levain once everything was Epoxied, thus giving me a lighter loaf at 50% whole grain (the thought that started this endeavor).
That actually was successful. I got a more open crumb than I did recently with a somewhat similar list of ingredients at only 30% whole grain.
I think PR is probably right about not needing to autolyse sprouted grain flours. I think I will do that next time.
I think you're right that the 'sweetness' in the bread was caused by the extended autolyse of the whole grains, to the point that there were more sugars broken down by the enzymes than the 'beasties' could eat (within that time frame). But that's just a guess.
I also think I will reduce the hydration of the final dough to about 80% or so and certainly that of the Soakers 1&2 (the whole grain components) by 10-15%. By the time of the Epoxying, they were both a little wetter than I needed them to be (altho it worked out fine).
In fact, next time, Soakers 1&2 will probably just be a redefinition of Soaker 1 with both the salt and a little bit of starter (only for reducing Phytic Acid, not leavening or sour, altho it will likely boost both a bit). It will also probably be for 8-12 hours (at most) and spend much of that time in the fridge as you suggest.
While I wouldn't recommend this recipe to anyone (nor would I repeat it), I would recommend exploring the concepts (which I intend to do). I'm still digesting all that I learned (and some pretty tasty bread as well).
The true goal here was to put to test all the things I've learned in the past few years (mostly, the last 8 months on TFL) and see if I could pull off such an experiment (with any success) and perhaps answer some questions I had. That was pretty successful.
Of course, every answer leads to many more questions, which is what makes this all so damn exciting.
BTW, I learned at least three things just from your response as well as all those from the other responses as well. Win, win.
Thanks dbm
dobie