Yes to Baking with sour milk
First let me state that I use Canadian milk . Canadian milk has no antibiotics or hormones in it. As i understand it, you can purchase milk products without these two things in USA as well but must watch your labelling. Raw milk, Pasteurized or homogenized milks all works and I have been baking with sour and out of date milk for over 20 years now. Friends and family have enjoyed my bread and never has anyone had any ill symptoms from it. I have used naturally soured milk from store bought milk even when it begins to sour so heavily that the curds are beginning to form in the milk. I have even used the whey once cottage cheese is forming and later used the curds in Lasagne.
The only time I do not use the soured milk for bread is when it has a distinctive rotten smell instead of a soured smell. Some milk every once in awhile will do this. I believe it is the way certain companies process their milk. I now just discontinue buying that brand and toss that one out , not because I think it might hurt me but because the taste later is not as good. Bacteria in bread is all killed once it is baked. You cannot tell by the taste that you used sour milk. This is a good way to use up off dated milks and creams. It is usually a person's perception of post dated or soured goods are that puts fear into them to not use it .The big thing is to change the way you think and realize that it is not unsafe to use out of date milks to bake with as long as you cook them above 162 degree Fahrenheit , and all our baking is done well above 300F. Milk is Pasteurized at 162 degree Fahrenheit.
Here is my bread maker recipe: ( you can also use fresh milk if your wish)
2 cups of out of date milk, any kind of % butter fat..(luke warm, if it curdles when you warm it do not worry, still works fine and tastes great in the finished product), 1 beaten egg, 4-4.5 cups flour depending on how dry your area is, 2T sugar, 1T salt,2 T cooking oil. I make several batches of the dough and put them to rest n my big oiled bread pan ( just helps me not to have to mix it myself) . Rise double, punch down and form loaves or buns or cinnamon rolls etc. the dough is good for many uses. If you like to mix your flours, for different breads, just be sure you do not use less than 1/2 white flour as the gluten content in rye or oatmeal flours, for example, do not have sufficient gluten in them to rise the bread properly.
I hope this helps some of you to try it and see how wonderful and delicious these bread products are when you are done. They also work in biscuits and pancakes and anywhere they call for buttermilk or soured milk although you may have to add a tsp. of vinegar to sour the milk further if has not soured naturally yet. .
Once you bake with Out of D. milk you will ask yourself why you have been wasting it all these years.
...who consider it strange that anyone would consume fresh milk.
You're right: it's all about perception. But I do love cool, fresh, full cream milk. ;-)
... if you can get it. Fortunately I can in Devon - even raw milk from time to time too.
-Gordon
Jennie
You are one brave soul and I applaude you. If I ever find myself with sour milk (it's been decades since), I will definetly try your approach.
Depending on the milk and where I'm buying it, usually the store's turn over is so great, I don't even bother to look at the sell by date anymore. The countdown really begins when you open it, I feel.
Around here, if milk should make it to 5 days, I just start a soup (usually bean, potato or tomato) that I like to finish with fresh milk (or mac & cheese).
Or as Jon said, just drink it.
Thank you for sharing.
dobie
ps - I know you probably didn't mean to say that you bake goods to 300F (internal), but it reads that way to me.
Canadian milk contains no growth hormones or antibiotics is misleading. Cows produce growth hormones naturally and those are still present and sick Canadian cows are given antibiotics just like in the U.S. but the milk of treated cows is suppose to be discarded for a certain time period. What is not done in Canada is the addition of constant low dosage antibiotics in the animal's feed. Testing of milk found that there is no increase in hormones present in the milk of animals given artificial growth hormones but the animals tend to be less healthy and get a lot more hoof issues so probably need the antibiotics in their diet.
Gerhard
" If you like to mix your flours, for different breads, just be sure you do not use less than 1/2 white flour as the gluten content in rye or oatmeal flours, for example, do not have sufficient gluten in them to rise the bread properly."
Really???
It's a form of starch which takes the place of gluten to provide the small amount of structure you see.
Mini Oven
Very kindly, please expand.
I too, by common knowledge (which is not always so knowledgeable nor common) would have assumed the same, as per OP.
Thank you,
dobie
And your assumption but only when adding non gluten flours (i'd be stricter though and not go over 20%). However rye has gluten! A different kind of gluten but gluten nonetheless. You can do 100% rye bread.
that did not include any white flour (white wheat.) Whole wheat, Einkorn, Einkorn & hazelnut flour, 60% Rye w/ 40% spelt, 70% rye, 80% and 100% rye. Rye especially benefits from the inclusion of soured and cultured dairy products.
EDIT Oh, I get it, if using the previously stated bread machine recipe. Yup, wouldn't want to go too far from the original amounts. got it. :)
Abe and Mini O
If either of you can share a link (that you trust), that would help me understand the different glutens and the content of them in various grains, I would greatly appreciate it.
With each week's bake I am using less white (even home milled) and more kamut, rye, spelt, and (adding this week) barley. But, fundamentally, I am very ignorant about their gluten content and what to expect in a bake or how to use them.
I'm just winging it (and so far, am pretty happy with them), but clearly, there is so much more to know.
Thank you both,
dobie
pick up a good baking textbook. Just do a site search for baking textbook. They can be expensive but well worth it. You can also look up how to run a gluten test on your flour for a rough idea of where it stands. More or less making a ball of dough, let the gluten develop and washing out the starch (if done in a bowl, the starch collects at the bottom) and other proteins in the water. Let it dry, Compare the flour weight to the gluten weight and ev. the protein amount on the package.. Gluten content is not the total formula for matrix building but I agree, it helps to know what you're dealing with.
As you already know, using different flours (even of the same grain) helps to understand their properties. They are not all alike and that is what makes it fun and challenging. Look up Barley and where it is consumed. How is it eaten? How is it prepared? These are big clues as to how to go about using it if you haven't got the speck sheets.
If you have some flops, make the best of them. Cut off samples and dry, freeze and store some at room temp and see how they change with time. Roast some of the flour, very popular to eat unleavened and moistened with tea in Tibet. How can this be translated into or on a loaf? (Ever make a loaf with tea?) What happens to barley flour on the outside of the loaf as it bakes? Lots of room for investigation. So far, I've never had large open crumb with barley, the more I use in the total flour, the smaller and finer the crumb. That is not to say it can't be soft. So watch for other signs of fermentation and gas trapping and how it works with other flours.
The sum of my knowledge on this subject is just using these flours and finding out (usually the hard way) the different properties. All wheat family grains have gluten but will be different. Whether they are wholegrain or white flour the gluten is present but will behave differently and produce a different crumb. Strong bread flour will have the strongest gluten, followed by AP flour and then plain flour (terminology will be different in the US or Europe). Spelt flows due to its more elastic gluten. Einkorn is sticky. Strong bread flour will soak up more water than weaker flours and so to wholegrain as the fibre drinks it up. Some grains do better at high hydration and others lower. Rye has gluten but is more of a gel and is made differently. Very high hydration, mixed like a cake and straight into final proofing when doing 100% rye. Oats I'm not sure about but even if they do I'd treat them like a non gluten grain e.g. add them as a percentage to a gluten grain. I'm sure there's loads of reading material and I believe Mini has pointed you in the right direction. There is an interesting video on gluten... This is not the one I had in mind but very good https://youtu.be/zDEcvSc2UKA
Abe and Mini O
Thank you both for the further response. You both have given me good advice I think.
I will head to the library this week to see what they have. They do have a pretty extensive bread/baking section.
At this point I try to focus on this forum, Wikipedia and YouTube for answers. Anywhere else and it's usually somebody trying to sell me something, making it very inefficient to sort thru for any valuable information. That's why I value recommendations from this forum, they're usually pretty good.
That was a good link to YouTube on gluten. As they and you guys recommend, I'm going to start doing gluten tests on any flour I use.
Getting that mill was the best investment I could have made. I feel I have so much more control.
I'm trying to remember 'baby steps' and 'one thing at a time', starting with basics. I am introducing barley to the mix this week (and read numerous Wiki's on it last night) but will definetly be doing a gluten test first.
BTW, made my first successful baguette last night (it only took 500 trys or so). Round as a torpedo with a large open tender crumb (like you read about) and a crackling red crust. Amazingly, I actually know what I did that made it work. I will repeat it in a day to two, just to confirm.
Thanks for all your help.
dobie
I take my hat off to you. Sounds really good! Bon Appetite.
Just made a spelt loaf with a touch of rye. Bit of a throw together with flour I had left. It's cooling. I love the smell of spelt dough and spelt bread is such a lovely taste. Healthy to boot!
Thanks Abe
I will feel much better when I replicate that baguette with the same techniques in the next few days.
BTW, I made my first 100% WW Spelt boule just this week. I was inspired by JonOBrien's insistance.
Surprisingly to myself, it turned out quite well. A fairly good representation of the intent, I feel. Being conservative, I kept the hydration to about 62% and it worked out well.
Yes, it did tend to pool flat and I definetly used a bit more bench flour than normal when tensioning (surely reducing the hydration % a bit, probably to about 60%), but I must say it was quite good. Good rise and spring for a boule and a fairly open, airy and light crumb with (of course) that wonderful nutty flavor. Now I know what it tastes of, purely.
I think my next step will be to include spelt as a part of the mix, rather than the whole. Honestly, it seemed of 'one note' to me (no matter how nice that note was). I suppose I would feel the same with 100% of any flour.
Rye is a wonderful thing, and while I am nowhere near a master of it yet, I can at least recognize it by sight and touch, without even tasting.
While not using naturally sour milk (I have none), my more experimental breads include Kefir, sour cream, yogurt and the like. Sort of 'cheesing' the dough. Yet again, baby steps.
Here's to health (and good bread).
dobie
ps I love the 'throw together' bakes. Flying by the seat of your pants. All options open. Devil be damned. So what was the form and how did it turn out?
... is something I never have. I'm wondering how much milk you buy at a time to have enough to store for 4-5 days until it does go sour. I get milk delivered fresh 3 days a week and can buy locally when I need a top-up...
-Gordon
To use like buttermilk? How about just using ordinary milk (no need to buy a batch and wait for it to sour) and add an acid? Like when using milk and lemon juice in place of buttermilk (or any other acid e.g. apple cider vinegar).
Most people in Canada buy 4.5 liters at a time. Milk comes in bags, a large bag containing 3 smaller bags each holding 1.5 liters.
Gerhard
Gerhard
Should/can I assume those bags are plastic?
dobie
They tried paper at first but it did not work well ;) Seriously, yes they are plastic bags. So I exaggerated the size the three bags total only 4 litres. The pictures shows the bag that contains the three bags, you would put the smaller bag into a plastic pitcher and then snip off one corner to allow you to pour it. The bags containing the milk are either clear plastic or white plastic. When I went to school the the outer bag was what everyone used for their lunch bag to carry sandwiches and stuff.
Gerhard
Gerhard
Milk in bags. That is so wild. It must be a little loosey goosey to handle, I would think.
I like the idea that you can just open one bag at a time, rather than starting the clock on the whole shebang at once.
I suspect that the paper cartons here in the States are lined with plastic (or who knows what), so what's the difference. Probably not much in that regard.
Lunch bag use is recycling, repurposing, so that's good.
Is it 'regular' milk (not ultra-pastuerized)?
dobie
Both regular and and the extended shelf life milk is available in bags, we also have milk in cartons but a 2 litre carton pretty much costs the same as a 4 litre bag. The amount of packaging material is reduced pretty significantly with the bags. Like everything else there is a Youtube video available.
Gerhard
Milk in bags, eh?
Gerhard
Very good video. She gets an 'A'.
It doesn't seem difficult to do at all.
If it were offered here in the States, I would buy it (just to be a little greener). If it saved me money, well, no doubt I would. Particularly if it would cut the cost in half of the pricey Organic Grass Fed (not ultra-pasteurized) milk we usually pay dearly for.
I wonder why we don't have bagged milk in the States? I bet it would be quite popular.
Thanks again
dobie
Most restaurants and diners in the US of A buy bagged milk in 3 gal containers. I certainly think bagged milk for home use would be unwieldy unless contained in a box similar to boxed wine.
On a side note, I buy my milk in 1 gal plastic jugs and it has no chance of turning even though it's only me there to drink it. For baking, I use non-fat DMS (simply for its convenience and it doesn't use up my drinking milk).
cheers,
gary
gary
Please know I mean this all kindly.
I'm sorry, but I can't come up with what 'DMS' means (Delhi Milk Scheme?).
Personally, in the few restaurants I've been able to get into the kitchen of here in NY, I've seen ketchup and other such things in boxed bags by the gallon or more, but never milk. That doesn't mean you are wrong; probably more the limits of my exposure. There could also be a difference between how things are done in Texas and NY.
I do think that video shows it to be not so unweildy for home use. After all, 100,000,000 Canadians can't all be wrong?
dobie
DMS stands for Dry Milk Solids, or as we called it back in the day, powdered milk. I'm surprised you haven't run into it in baking, as it's a common ingredient.
Cafes and diners use the bagged milk for service to customers. The waitress sets the glass under the spout and lifts the weighted handle of the pinch valve to fill the glass. Much less mess than dealing with cartons or bottles. It is also more sanitary than handling the smaller containers, as the large bag is fully sealed against air and other contamination.
As for the video, the way she used the container looks like a royal pita. I saw it as a failure waiting to happen all over me and the floor. If I was forced to use those bags, I'd simply dump the contents into a sealable pitcher and throw the bag away.
cheers,
gary
Most 7 year olds seem to have mastered the use of the pitcher and I can't remember having an accident with a bag. I think dumping the contents into another container would shorten the shelf life substantially.
Gerhard
gary
LOL. How stupid of me. If you had called it 'powdered milk', I would have understood.
I was looking for something much more obscure, but yes, with after thought (out of all the other 'DMS' acronyms around), I have heard of 'DMS' as meaning 'Dry Milk Solids' before. It's just not something I use with any regularity (actually, not at all) and therefore, is somewhat of an obtuse acronym to me. Sorry about that.
That is why I think it is appropriate to describe the acronym at first use, before using it forward. Not all (other than the ubiquitous BTW, LOL) acronyms are so obvious to your public, and certainly DMS would qualify as one I would have first described.
I'm sure I have a long list of acronyms that I could use, that you might not immediatly understand. Be kind to teach.
Regardless; Bagged milk in US food establishments is just not anything I've ever seen (nor heard about), at least in NY State. How do they keep it at proper temperature?
Regarding less mess and more sanitary, I suppose that could be so, but in the kitchens I've been in, milk goes so fast (even in standard 1/2 gallon containers of any kind), freshness is never an issue.
Much less; mess-wise, I would only refer to the cartoned, bagged and valve-spouted ketchup dispensory as perhaps the nastiest and probably least sanitary of all delivery systems in the kitchen. But that is just my experience.
So by 'pita', I assume you must mean 'Pain In The Ass'.
Nobody will force you to do anything, but having watched the video, don't you feel that it's a rather simple and easy thing to do in a home setting?
dobie
My normal method of using acronyms and abbreviations does include using the full form first, e.g. "dry milk solids (DMS)". I didn't do it here for the reason you mentioned; it seemed to me to be a ubiquitous term in a baking forum. Apparently not. :sigh:
In a restaurant kitchen, bulk milk availability would not be that handy, as line cooks that would need milk would have it at their stations. For the wait staff, bulk storage is a definite advantage over quart, half gallon or gallon containers.
These large bags are enclosed in cardboard boxes. At the base of the bag is a plugged tube which will deliver the milk. The box is placed on a shelf in a small refrigerator (usually of a size to hold two boxes of milk side by side). The tube is run through an opening under the box and through a pinch valve (like the valve controlling water flow for a douche or enema--sorry for the graphic description, but I couldn't think of anything else that commonly uses that type valve). Then the plug is cut off.
No muss, no fuss, little or no opportunity for error. That's quite unlike the muss, fuss and Goldilocks variations in preparing the home use baggy.
By light of day (I'm afraid I was bit tired and cranky last night), I think you're right about DMS being pretty well understood on this forum and I should have recognized it. I remember there was a page somewhere on this forum with a long list of abreviations, and looking thru the Lessons, Tutorials and FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions - chuckle chuckle) I couldn't find it (not even in the Glossary) and I'm afraid I was a little frustrated. Then I tried to find it thru google, and was even more frustrated. So, my apologies.
I think the bag system that you describe sounds great and no doubt works well in the front of the house.
I wish I could find bagged milk here, but believe it or not, NY is often the last place to get new technology, so it's probably on its way. I thought from viewing that video of using it at home, that it might not be too awkward, but I haven't tried it yet to know.
Anyway, thank you,
dobie
For your information (FYI), here's a version with more capacity than what I had to fill as a bus boy in the early 60s. Milk dispenser
g
LOL (laughing out loud). Ok, ok, enough already. I'm very sorry for what I said (but that was really funny). You took it very well and I appreciate that.
That link shows it well. Very nice (and expensive too). But for a business, not so bad.
I was thinking, if you could rig it so that all you had to do was break the infra-red connection to get it to dispence (like modern sink faucets), that actually could be useful in a commercial kitchen as well.
I have come across many instances of 'new tech' in the hills of Appalachia or the flatlands of Missouri, Kansas, etc., only to see it come to us in NY a year or so later. Price scanners, modern cash registers, digital this or that, liquor in plastic bottles and many other things.
I was told (by a friend in the marketing business) that this was to try things out on a smaller scale at first. If it was accepted and sold well in the middle, rural US, only then they would commit to the expense of introducing it to the major (mostly coastal US) markets. Interesting, huh? Makes me wonder what they might have seen that never made it to the NY market.
Thanks
dobie
taking some of the empty bags home where we would shorten the hose and save the red plug to plug them after we got them rinsed out and clean enough. Then kick them around the yard or put a pillow case over them. They didn't last long but long enough to make it sometimes to the YMCA or public pool where they quickly got whistled at from the life guard. Back in the days before blow up pool toys. That was Wisconsin in a new suburb, Sun Prairie north of Madison. School milk was in a glass and the dispenser was for getting yourself seconds.
When water beds made the scene it seemed logical to me to follow up pillow bladders with mattress bladders.
Makes me wonder what we might have seen that inspired more ideas in the future that never came out of NY.
Well, I didn't know what DMS meant. I did guess that DM meant dry milk, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what the "S" meant!
...in one supermarket about six or seven years ago. Interestingly, it was an organic milk, more expensive than plastic-bottled milk, sold with an 'eco' label. One or two other supermarkets followed suit but the idea doesn't seem to have caught on.
Here in the Toronto area, bagged milk can be regular (as in the picture) or filtered, which lasts longer but costs more. The pictured 2% milk is usually $3.99 while filtered 2% is usually $5.99.
UHT may be available, but I don't look for it and haven't inadvertently noticed it in years.
Hi Arjon
What do you mean by 'filtered'? I've never heard of that, regarding milk.
dobie
It is micro filtered milk, basically gets rid of almost all bacteria and has a long shelf life without taste altering preservatives or high heat pasteurization.
Gerhard
Never heard of that process. It sounds very good. Is it more expensive?
Does anyone know if that exist in the US? And again, if not, why not?
I know you can't make 'cheese' with ultra (high heat) pasteurized milk, but can you 'cheese' with micro filtered milk? I would think you could.
Thanks
dobie
I don't know about the cheese making in our grocery store the micro filtered costs the same as a regular bag but it contains 25% less, 3 x 1 litre bags instead of 3 x 1.3 litre bags.
Gerhard
Gerhard
Hmmm, so it's a little bit more expensive, probably from the processing.
Are there any advantages? Does it last longer? Is it, perhaps, not even pasteurized other than by micro filtered (not otherwise heated)?
And just to beg along, has anybody ever heard of micro filtering in the States?
Thanks Gerhard
dobie
As far as I know all milk has to be pasteurized in Canada, there is a small raw milk movement but the farmers that supply them seem to be constantly in legal trouble. It does have long shelf life, somewhere around 1 month. I did a quick google search and learned much more than I knew about the process.
http://www.cooksinfo.com/micro-filtered-milk
Gerhard
Gerhard
Thank you. Same here in the States. But apparently in New York State, they have a system of certification, that once you get it (to sell 'raw'), while you might be inspected at anytime, you will not be harrassed, as I understand it.
There is a local farmer about 45 minutes away from me (with no traffic) who is certified, can and will sell raw milk from their own cows. The price is $12 US per half gallon, easily 6X the cost of standard market milk. Add the 8-$10 petrol on top of that for the trip.
Some day, for some special cheese, I will buy some (I'll be a better cheese maker if I do), but that's a pretty dear price to pay.
At least I can get it if I want to.
dobie
The body text in my post yesterday disappeared. :( I had written that here in the Toronto area, the 4 liter bag of 2% that gerhard showed has an everyday price of $3.99 (other brands too). A 4 liter bag of filtered 2% is usually $5.99.
Thanks Arjon
So the gremlins ate you homework, huh? Just kidding. They eat posts all too frequently. No harm, no foul.
The price boost is not too bad but significant.
Do you know if they pasteurize the milk first, or is the filtering considered the pasteurization?
dobie
Arjon
Please disregard the previous.
The link that Gerhard provided explains it quite well (I finally got around to reading it).
They say that after micro-filtering, the milk is (by law) pasteurized in the US and Canada. Apparently you can get micro-filtered, yet unpasteurized milk in Europe, tho.
dobie
:) If not, why not?
Funny how blind one can be. I recently lived over a year in Canada and purchased milk there but because I bought milk in paper cartons and in plastic bottles, never thought to look for bags of milk. Grew up in the USA, Pre.programming I guess. Should have spent more time in the supermarket and really looked at everything. How is it kept in the fridge? Any special bag compartments in Canadian refrigerators? In Austria, one would have difficulty with gallon size jugs of milk or the wide cartons. The shelves are generally low and narrow, the doors designed for litre size cartons and bottles. Bags would pose a problem and need a drawer or bin.
I looked in my 1918 Fanny Farmer cookbook. All instances I could find of milk used in baking called for scalding the milk. All instances of sour milk used in baking were not. I guess that implies an answer to your first question. but I found nothing about 'why not?'
Can we infer that the acidity of sour milk or buttermilk denatures the enzymes as scalding would have?
cheers,
gary
gary
I think you may be on to something there.
The only points I can add would be regarding cheesemaking. The more precise recipes call for 'scalding milk' to 180F and then holding it there for 20-30 minutes. I do recall enzymic activity was at the root cause for this procedure. What exactly that means, I don't know. I would guess, killing the enzymes off.
This includes the making of yogurt and 'buttermilk' (not the true kind, left over from buttermaking, but the cultured kind as one buys in the market nowadays) as well as any cheese I've ever seen a recipe for. Take that with a grain of salt, as I am sure I do not know everything about cheesemaking nor have I read every recipe.
Yet, in these cases, the milk is 'soured' (cultured) after scalding, not before. That doesn't disprove your thought, but I thought it worth noting.
dobie
school in a similar dispenser to the one posted above. The one I used to fill was a 3 ga; one that held 3 bags of milk, 1 whole, 1 non fat and 1 chocolate. Each bag was in a cardboard box so you could handle it easier. These boxes were specially made for the school lunch program originally and they found their way into restaurants that did a large breakfast business too. So they were around the States for at least 50 years ago - Oh My! i'm getting old.
You don't see them much any more having been replaced by the single serve small cartons quite a few years ago in most places. No expensive special refrigerated dispenser needed. But the new green thing is to go back to dispensers at school so that the kids don't fill up the bins with milk carton trash trash. Who knew we were so green and ahead of the curve 50 years ago,
dobie- NFDMP - Non Fat Dry Milk Powder - is pretty much used in the states and it is about the only kind you can find for some reason, I guess the fat makes it spoil faster if it were included
dbm
I am amazed to hear that but I don't doubt you for a second.
Yet, in all of my years at school (kindergarten thru 12th grade public and then all my years in college - from 1956 to 1980) and in all the restaurants I've ever been in, I don't ever recall seeing such a device.
It might just be New York State, it might just be I wasn't observant enough in restaurants, but particularly thru my school and college years, the only milk available to me in any cafeteria was in an 8oz waxed cardboard container.
That knowledge is of course limited to the small number of cafeterias I frequented, but I'm just saying, I never saw or touched one as you pictured (and I think I would have noticed that). It seems odd, but that wouldn't be the first thing to be so.
dobie
grade schools, practically a different one every year. I had cartons of milk in each school up to the third grade, bags in the cafeteria but cartons in the classroom for milk break, there was a few years where I walked home for lunch so didn't see if there was a milk machine. For the 4th & 5th grade saw cartons in South Carolina schools but no longer got them with the great integration times of 1970. Then it was machines all the time in school cafeterias. And I'm guessing the cartons were only for grade school kids.
During high school, package design did come out with crimped tubes for drinks. Pinched flat on one side then rotated 90° to be pinched off on the other side. They looked more like triangles. Anyone know what that shape is called? Often saw the shape on airlines for coffee cream.
I haven't been around long enough to have witnessed glass bottles for school milk.
MO
I remember those little triangles of cream in restaurants. I also remember making quite a mess with them more than once.
dobie