November 1, 2015 - 6:40am
NY Times article today, "Bread is Broken"
"Bread is Broken",
Industrial production destroyed both the taste and the nutritional value of wheat. One scientist believes he can undo the damage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/magazine/bread-is-broken.html?
I can't find the original post from a month ago, but one of us posted a link to the following article, also well worth a read"
Did Food Enrichment Cause The Obesity Epidemic?
This is an interesting article on food enrichment in the American diet and how that may affect obesity and what we consider to be gluten intolerance.
https://medium.com/@rnikoley/did-food-enrichment-cause-the-obesity-epidemic-c9d083eb49bf
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Great article - thanks Alfanso.
Wild-Yeast
Thank you very much Alan. Exellent article.
Of course, now I'm going to have to grow my own wheat to mill. Hmmm.
Most disconcerting to me was the former Gereral Mills employee saying they just discarded the germ in 'whole wheat' as just too bothersome.
I hope David Killilea is successful in his attempt at 'developing a test to determine the proportions of endosperm, germ and bran in an anonymous sample of flour, which could bring transparency to the murky practices of industrial mills'. That would be very important, I think.
I wonder where KAF stands on all of this? Not to pick on them (I know they have shown integrity) but as the most nationally available high end commercial flour in the USA, I am curious where they stand.
dobie
My thought on reading the article was that I should grind my own wheat. I've been grinding specialty grains like farrow, barley, and rye but using store bought whole wheat. My hand mill is pretty slow so this will add time. I have also been adding wheat germ when I remember to buy it. I was digging through my freezer and found a bag of locally produced wheat.
prettedda
Good things all. What mill are you using?
dobie
We screamed for inexpensive, non sour, white bread and even got the bread manufacturers to add in vitamins and minerals to it to make it really good especially for children who might not get them - same thing for milk - all kinds of vitamins and ,minerals added in for the kids, So the entire supply chain from seed manufacturers, farmers, millers and bread making companies, who all have to make money at each level of production, complied to our every wish .
Then all of the sudden some bit of truth leaked out, soon it was white bread was bad for you all of the sudden so the millers and bread makers starting making whole wheat flour and baking whole wheat bread to make us feel better about ourselves. They gave us what we wanted and didn't try to check for the truth of the whole Wheat myth.
Now we find out that whole wheat bread has the same GI and nutrition as the white bread we no longer wanted, No need to add in the vitamins and minerals though since whole wheat flour has them but no improvement there by leaving then out either. No one checked to make sure the supply chain was telling us the truth about whole wheat flour - I suppose that too was our own fault,
Now we know that the real health benefits, for GI, nutrition etc are all in the whole grains and the flour made from them since, unlike whole wheat flour, supposedly it hasn't been tampered with, stuff taken out and then stuff put back in. The problem with whole grain flour is that is spoils quickly and nothing is better than freshly ground whole grain flour.- not really but that is less of a lie I suppose. By the time a miller can get whole grain flour to the store for you to buy....... it is no longer fresh. But, of course, we also now know that sprouting grains, then drying and milling them at home even is even better for you.. So to get the very best flour,you need to sprout, dry and grind your own fresh flour.which really takes way more time and money.
Still, there is no need for these millers and commercial bakers who have lied to us and supplied us with inferior flour and bread product for about forever. Now, if we could get the grain middleman from ripping us off with the high price of whole grains and buy them from the farmer or the silo or the retail store for a fair price - that would be revolutionary. If I can get white flour for 30 cents a pound then the whole grains should be half that price, readily available and I would be in bread heaven without having to die first.
I don't know what all these people who would be cut out of the process of making great bread would do but people lose their jobs all the time for all kinds of reasons that are much less onerous than lying and ripping people off. Or do they?
Sadly, not everyone has the time or means to do this. Some don't like whole grain breads. Others simply can't afford it and with 45% of Americans on food stamps, they can't afford the $1,99 Wonder Bread at the store and buy the 99 cent store brand sandwich bread instead (even whole wheat kind) - when they aren't buying Twinkies. I'm not trying to say people on food assistance are abusing it but what I am saying is that when nearly half the population is on food assistance, the supply chain needs to be focused on that to some degree to provide an affordable bread that the rest of the richer population is paying the freight to provide to the needy.
How could we afford to buy great, healthy whole grain sprouted sourdough bread from The Mill .for the poor? The answer is we can't but we, as the rich and we all are, can afford to buy what ever we need to make what ever bread we want. So, is paying through the nose for whole grains, that should cost much less than I think they should, too much to ask from those who can afford it? I mean, it isn't like we are forced to eat store brand white or white wheat sandwich bread like so many others. But this isn't new either. We've seen this all before. .
In ancient Rome, the great whole grain bread was supplied free to the poor. No, not the expensive but bad for you white bread the elite ate - that was too expensive and thought to be better at the time. It didn't turn out well for the poor Romans in the end. As soon as Rome could no longer provide free bread, even the good whole grain kind, to the poor, the empire collapsed but it wasn't because the poor took over the place for being hungry and demanding the bad white bread instead. \\
The fewer and fewer over taxed rich just ran out of money to pay, provide food and arms for the troops, upkeep of the infrastructure stopped, the economy was squeezed with few jobs for the masses, corruption of the ruling elite that the low class Romans no longer trusted, decay of the military, loss of immigration control and too many, growing numbers of the poor. who were unwilling to work at jobs that slaves had previously done. A recipe for bad things, including bread for sure. This all sounds so economically driven but so familiar to Lucy for some reason......
Should that be a lesson for us? It all seems so complicated. Maybe the end really is near and we shouldn't worry so much about bread? No worries, Lucy says she has it all figured out if for us. Now if she would only tell us what it is? I'm just hoping she isn't lying to us and trying to rip us off like so many in the bread business. Being in AZ, it was great to not get an extra hour of sleep on Saturday too.....
http://www.trimdownclub.com/is-whole-wheat-bread-actually-healthier-than-white-bread/
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-reasons-why-rome-fell
Happy bread baking - what ever it is. Enjoy it while you can and thank goodness for daylight savings which arrives just in time:-)
dbm
At first read, I think I agree with most of what you say, but let me give it another read tomorrow to truly reply.
One question tho, what do you mean by 'GI' (gastro-intestinal)? I'm just not familiar with the acronym.
I also think Stephen Jones' passion for wheat is extraordinary and again, leads me to think of growing my own.
I have often wondered why it costs me more per pound for the whole grain I will mill myself, than the flour supposedly made from the same grain (on a supermarket level).
I did not realize 45% of Americans were on food stamps and (while it surprises me), I have no cause to doubt it.
That is a very interesting explaination of the 'Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. I never thought of it that way, nor was I taught it that way, but I think there is merit to your thought.
dobie
Glycemic Index, in this context, I'm pretty sure.
Glycemic Index is a measure of how rapidly your blood sugar rises after eating a particular food. A rapid rise is bad, if you have other risk factors for diabetes, especially. Whole grains have a lower glycemic index than refined grains, for example.
David
Thanks dmsnyder
That sounds right.
dobie
is an amazing story. I'm not sire what whole grain berries I get at various places but I know that the flour I mill from it and the bread i make from it is totally different than the flour and bread i can get anywhere else. I try to make the healthiest, most nutritious bread with the lowest GI I can because of my diabetes - a really hideous disease, But my wife doesn't like it nearly as much as I do and she doesn't have to, She prefers non sour, yeast Oroweat, whole wheat, sandwich bread she can \get at the store. She likes my least healthy nutritious bread the best - the ones with the least amount of whole grains and least amount of sour - Tartine, Forkish and the many David Snyder SFSD style breads but I do up the whole grains to a minimum of 30%. That is what people want and like.
She doesn't have diabetes or like sourdough - just like most people. There just aren't very many of us like me who would make home milled, sprouted, whole grain breads because we like them the best and have the money and time to make them. So we can't control the massive bread food chain - we have no clout. But people like Steven Jones and Gary Zimmerman here in Phoeniz at Hayden Mills like so many others would rather do what they think is best nd create an new piece of the bread food chain that suits their beliefs wants and needs. For them to succeed it takes rich people who can afford it to pay more to get better grain, ingredients and processes to get better bread in the end. But they are fee and far between and the number of rich people is getting smaller too.
I don't see any barriers to getting better whole grain bread to the masses at a lower cost than white bread either. Even with the grains being grown today the bread would be so much better but there would have to be drastic changes in the supply chain to not sift the flour, make it milled just in time, convert yeast bakeries to the sourdough process, etc. But even that would very likely fail because people just wouldn't eat the bread - like my wife who is in the vast majority - not to mention the kids who would just hate it., Look what Michelle Obama's good food program for school kids has wrought? The kids hate the healthy food and just throw it in the trash - a huge waste and failure at every level. They are already giving half of it away for free to poor kids so even free food falls flat (the dreaded 4 F's)
So it is probably better to hope people like Steve Jones continue to do the right thing for people like us on a small scale. That way we might continue to be able to get some whole grain berries somewhere - at any price.
Still, somehow we have to start slipping real whole grains into bread for kids, even yeast breads, without them knowing about it or there is little hope for changing things toward better bread for all in the distant future either.
Plus Lucy says it probably doesn't make much difference anyway at the rate things are going:-)
dbm
It sounds like your wife and my SO have similar tastes in bread. She likes it not sour, light and fluffy but with a fair amount of seeds and things in it.
I have noticed that the more I'm using home milled flour (sprouted in particular) and the better I get at making it, the more willing she seems to be to eat it. It could also be evolving tastes. She still keeps her supply of store bought 'artisan' breads (that fit your description) on hand.
Just to prove my ignorance of diabetes even further - it surprises me that you would have it. From what I have read in your posts you seem to eat very healthy and have been for a long time. So I'm guessing it's not just diet intitiated (as the media constantly attributes to it's rise) but can be brought on by other issues as well?
Regarding the dreaded 4 F's - as my mother used to say (when I told her I didn't like something), 'Well, you can eat it or wear it'.
dobie
is genetic and heredity driven. My twin brother just has a diabetic stroke and has recently just left the hospital after a month or so with a walker. The other part was my life style. For 25 years I ate out every meal from Monday morning through Friday night, worked very hard, played very hard with too much food, hooch, no exercise and little sleep. i had been on pills for years and years and just made do. When i retired I got serous. lost 70 pounds down to 178 by walking 4 miles a day. started eating healthy and got off all the pills for 5 years.
Now i am back on them since diabetes never goes away and only gets worse as you age. Time to do something different again though. Might have to give up carbs this time .......
Growing up pretty poor, but not any more poor than anyone else as far as we could tell, with 3 brothers that were 3 years apart and hungry all the time, there was never any talk about not liking any kind of food - at least mostly :-) My Mom and Dad were always amazed there was never anything in the fridge or cupboards to eat when they got home from work. There wasn't much food hanging around in them anyway I remember when i was little, we were eating left over biscuits for dinner the next night that my mom had hidden away but...... they were hard as rocks. i would have eaten them if i could - no problem. I remember that I took that biscuit and chucked it across the kitchen and bounced it off the kitchen cabinet saying i wasn't going to eat any old hard bikkets.
I thought I had a good point since it put a huge dent in the metal cabinet:-) My Dad wasn't having any of it though, had a better point and, after his way of persuading, I never ever complained about any food, of any kind, being fed to me ever again - and still don't. Oddly, he was never mad about the dent though. Dad is still kicking around pretty good at 83, hasn't changed any and I don't need or want reminding:-)
Happy baking
the actual number right now is 46.6 million people are on SNAP the replacement for the old food stamp food assistance program. Another 31 million children are on the school lunch program. Pretty sad for the supposed richest country on earth. We have another 59 million on social security benefits which now generally makes one ineligible for SNAP as are the 20 million illegal aliens. With over 38 % of Americans not working at all for one reason or another it is no wonder that so many are on financial assistance of all kinds.. That is what these safety nets are for./
dbm
Thanks for the clarification. Even 15-16% of the population on SNAP is higher than I would have supposed.
Of the '38 % of Americans not working at all for one reason or another', does that include people too young or too old to be considered in the work force or people who are in school/college or perhaps raising a family? Does it include people with physical or mental disabilities? I don't know, I'm just asking.
The number that would be most significant to me would be those of an appropriate age, circumstance and ability that are not working. I think that number would be scary enough.
I will take issue with the implication that the 59 million people receiving Social Securitiy Benefits are in some way 'being on assistance'.
First, I don't like the term 'Benefits' as it implies (as you did), that they are on 'assistance'. Even the very wealthy collect Social Security 'Benefits'. It is their due.
As I understand it, SS is a government form of 'forced' savings for retirement. The money never reaches your pocket, but rather that of the US Government.
In theory, the government would invest the monies that individuals pay into the system so that the principle grows interest and when you reach the required age, depending upon what you put in, so you shall receive back. So, it is your money being returned to you (with interest) and not a hand out of 'assistance' by any means that I'm aware of.
The original thought was that then the government would not find itself in a position of having to choose between either doling out money (unfunded) sufficient for basic survival, or just letting people starve or freeze to death when they could no longer work.
Now, I know the SS system is corrupt and broken, but please don't blame the individual workers who had no choice but to co-operate. Blame the politicians that rob Peter to pay Paul for that fiasco.
Regardless, for nutrition (in this wealthiest of nations) to be so hard to come by for so many (rich or poor - by whatever reason), is truly a disgrace and I applaude the efforts of Stephen Jones and the many others (including yourself) who are actively trying to affect significant change for the better.
God knows, there are enough people working in the other direction. Corporate greed over national health is disgraceful (and bordering on sabatoge) in my opinion.
dobie
SNAP and why such a high percentage of people are in it, - 18% of the overall population but if you take out people who are ineligible the % goes up dramatically. The only thing I said about SS is that those on SS aren't eligible for SNAP. The reason is because the income from SS is too high to qualify for food benefits. SS isn't a benefit - it is more like like a gift that you pay a small part of.over time..
The recipients today paid in a small amount pre tax and their employers matched it pretax. Technically is is called SS insurance but it isn't really insurance either unless you say the government has self insured it. in reality, it is a legal government Ponzi scheme where people working today are paying into the 'fund' for most of the benefits being paid out to people who got into the Ponzi scheme long before they did and have reached the age required to withdraw money from the 'fund.'
Barry Madoff went to jail for this stuff. In this case the Barry Madoff is the government. All the money that comes in to the 'fund' is stolen by the government and used to pay for everyday expenses The government then writes an IOU ti the SS Insurance 'Fund' saying we owe you what we stole plus 2% interest, The money is never invested, it is just loaned to the government at unusually low interest rates. It is nothing more than a totally unsecured loan to the government who knows that if they have to, they can just print dollars to pay off the loans when they become due - which is what they have been doing if you overlook the $18.5 Trillion they have borrowed to cover their deficit spending at the same time which they figure they will print money to pay off since there is no way the American tax payer can ever ever pay it off, SS incime is not tax free either - it was pre tax when taken out of everyone's check and only the first 15% of what you take out later is tax free for people like me,
My dad is one of the folks who have benefited the most from SS. He was a lower income guy but worked most of the the time until he was in his mid 50's and retired at 62 for SS purposes. He and his employer paid in a bit less than $41,000.to SS but, since low income guys like him are subsidized by high earners, he has already taken out almost $202,000,in benefits - He is 83. I and my employers paid in 4 times what he did and i subsidized low earners since I was a high one but, if i live as long as he has, I will take out $600,000 in benefits. A great deal for my Dad but a rotten one for me.
It sounds like a lot but if I had been allowed to invest that money over those 40 years and returned the same % profit i did every year on my other investments I held over that time, i would be able to take out $2.4 million instead of $600,000 and still be able to pass on a big chunk that would be left to my heirs - try doing that with SS.,,. But that is what happens in Ponzi schemes run by the government where the money is stolen to pay current bills and never invested in anything at all. When SS was passed the retire,ment age was 65 but the age at death was only 62. The government never thought they would have to pay a dime out. - my how things change!
Here is some advice I just ran a net present value on the debt of the USA today plus and its unfunded liabilities for Medicare Medicaid and SS only over the period promised, not counting all the other stuff the government has to pay for like, interest on the debt, defense, welfare programs education etc. The NPV of the liabilities is a staggering $200 trillion dollars. That more tan $1 trillion for each of the 198 Million Americans working today.
Put as much money in tax free accounts as you can and invest 15% of your gross income every pay check from when you first start working and hope they don't confiscate all of it to pay of the debt :)
Happy investing
dbm -
As alfanson (OP) seems to be willing to allow this thread to diverge, I would say;
I am deeply moved by your thoughts. You bring up many significant points and not to short change them, I will re-read them and respond in the morning.
Well appreciated.
dobie
dbm
I did not mean to direct my SS rant at you. Sorry about that.
I agree that it is essentially a corrupt Ponzi scheme and that you (or I) probably could have done better investing the money ourselves.
I am no authority on SS but as I understand it SS income is taxable if your income from it and other sources leaves you with a tax liability. If not, it isn't taxed (or at least that's how my accountant explained it to me).
For all the people that are lucky enough to take out more than they put in, there are also those unfortunate enough to never collect a single penny because they died before eligability. I personally know far more of the later than the former.
I think you offer excellent advice on investing, particularly from a young age.
Sorry to stray so far from the topic.
dobie
dbm
This is not to disregard any of your other statements made in this very informative post.
I have a question to ask and I think you might just be the man with the answer.
I was reading thru your link to 'trimdownclub.com' and found it informative. You long ago convinced me of the virtues of home milled sprouted grains. But it does leave me with one question unanswered (to which I've been searching for a long time).
When they say 'Sprouting of grains results in grain products with greater nutrient content...' (and it might be inappropriate of me to remove this clip from it's context), what do they mean?
It almost sounds to me like 'perpetual motion (or energy)'. How does a sprouted grain (to which only water has been added to its original state of seed) create 'greater nutrient content'? Isn't all the nutritional content already extant in the seed? Where does the 'greater nutrient content' come from.
It must just be that in the transformation of sprouting that the existing nutrients become more 'bio-available', I would guess.
Any insight?
dobie
I can't find the original post from a month ago, but one of us posted a link to the following article, also well worth a read.
about how bad butter and sugar in bread is - Whew!
I don't believe that there's a single cause to the obesity epidemic. Many factors contribute to the problem. Some are obvious, some less so and, and undoubtedly, there are some as yet unidentified.
The number of calories many people take in but don't burn off through exercise is one of the obvious, and probably most significant, ones. Less obvious are things like probiotics, which many people take daily as a 'health supplement' without realising that they're also given to cattle to make them to gain weight! Thanks to Michael Pollan for that little gem.
Jon
Probiotics and weight gain is shocking. I'll definitely look into that more.
Just for my own clarity, does 'probiotics' include the various LABs in all these different dairy brews? I'm assuming they are one in the same, but I don't know.
Thank you
dobie
I picked that snippet up reading his Omnivore's Dilemma. An excellent book which should be read by everyone who eats any non-organic foods they haven't produced themselves.
He's talking about the US food industry, of course, but his warnings are relevant in most of the countries in the 'developed' world. The main consolation we have in Europe is that our cattle are raised on grass, not grain.
Thank you Jon
I will check it out (of the library, tomorrow).
dobie
Zero scientific evidence on my part, but I'll take a stab at two factors that have helped create an obesity crisis in the US.
I'm more well traveled than some, not as well traveled as many. In my ventures outside the US border it is not all that common to see pedestrians walking the streets eating and drinking (high calorie drinks) as we do in the US. How can that not be a contributing factor? It is clear as day to me that people elsewhere in the world do not ingest foods as they walk, which is quite common here.
Poor people cannot be concerned with nutrition as much as most of us are. They eat to satisfy hunger and affordable choices are ofter bulking foods or fat laden. The less educated also may often lean toward less healthful foods choices. The US has no shortage of quick stop convenience stores everywhere all too willing to stock up on what the public demands. In a way, eating is a hobby. Large supermarkets have entire aisles, perhaps 100 feet long or longer, dedicated to nothing but potato chips (crisps) on one side and sugared carbonated drinks on the other.
Alan -
Those are some very interesting thoughts. I particularly like the 'eating is a hobby' one.
Instinctively, I agree with much of what you say, but I will (very kindly) try to poke some holes in a few, only because I am questioning them myself.
Regarding 'Poor people cannot be concerned with nutrition as much as most of us are'; I get where you're going with satisfying hunger with high carb and fat laden food. It's a quick (and often nutritionally deficient) fix. But I would argue that it is actually cheaper to purchase 'whole', unprocessed foods to satisfy hunger than all the processed crap so ubiquitous in supermarkets and quickie marts.
So I'm not so sure economics is the root cause, but rather (as you said) education, or at least a matter of intelligent choices. Of course, time and energy (and cooking skills) are required for most whole foods and that might be a part of the equation.
To be fully transparent, I eat more ice cream in a year than I probably should (but I have learned to lessen the quantity with lots of fresh fruit on top and bottom. I don't frequent 'fast food joints' or restaurants in general unless I'm on the road (or they come highly recomended by a friend). If I drink one 'soda pop' a year, that is a lot. Mmmmm, root beer float. But I get what you're saying, 'eating is a hobby', rich or poor; probably.
Our standard of living is so high (historically) that even the poorest of us piss away so much money on so much (essentially) useless crap, it is mindboggling. Particulary to people in the rest of the world who struggle to find sufficient 'whole' food to survive and perhaps, might find a 'Big Mac' or some other processed tidbit as a tremendous, extravagant treat.
I'm not so sure about the 'walking while eating' thing. I think back to the 'evening constitutional' (traditional walk after a meal) to aid digestion. I know it works for my dogs. But I understand what you say when people are walking down the street, slurping sugar water and knoshing high fat snacks on a regular basis (and at a high cost). That can't be good for body or wallet.
Anyway, good thoughts.
dobie
Interesting to see that mentioned. At the risk of sounding like a fanboi, here are Michael Pollan's 'rules for eating':
1: Don't eat anything your grandmother wouldn't recognise as food
2: Avoid foods containing ingredients you can't pronounce
3: Don't eat anything that won't eventually rot
4: Avoid food products that carry health claims
5: Shop the peripheries of the supermarket; stay out of the middle
6: Better yet, buy your food somewhere else: farmers' markets or the CSA
7: Pay more, eat less
8: Eat a wide diversity of species
9: Eat food from animals that eat grass
10: Cook and, if you can, grow some of your own food
11: Eat meals and eat them only at tables
12: Eat deliberately, with other people whenever possible, and always with pleasure
Number five suggests that American supermarkets are laid out differently from UK ones. In the supermarket I sometimes use the fruit and vegetables are in the middle of the store and the isle with the fizzy sugar-water is against a wall.
ever seen. I would only add is.......drink lots of water. Thanks Jon
Thanks Jon
Those are mighty good rules and ones I live by as best I can.
I'm not sure if number '12: Eat deliberately...' covers this or not, but if it doesn't, I would add 'Chew your food well and don't rush'. Enjoy and savor every bite. They say (whoever 'they' may be) that it takes 20 minutes for the brain to get the signal from the stomach that it is full. I don't know if that's true but I think slower is better. I am almost always the last at a table to finish my meal. That is also one reason why I crave good food (mediocre food is difficult to savor).
Still not sure about the 'eating while walking and 'at a table' thing, but since at a table is how I do nearly always, I will let it rest. But I will still take my 'constitutional' afterwards. Walking is always good, yes? (perhaps just not while actually eating).
Here in the States, the Fruit and Veg are on one far wall of nearly every market, and the Dairy and Bread on the opposite (usually furthest from the entrance). I once asked a 'manager' as to why that was so and I was told that most people come in for dairy, then veg (or both) and by being at opposite ends, one must pass by all the rest of the stuff, which encourages impulse buys.
Thanks again, very good words to eat by.
dobie
...about them is that they're moderate, non-judgemental, so general as to be easily applied under a range of circumstances and, above all, they feel like friendly reminders. Most of this isn't really news, it's stuff that's being forgotten.
You'd have to read his writing to solve your dilemma over number 12. I haven't read enough to know where the rules are defined, and I suspect that they're each the compression of a reasoned argument, but I'd say that eating deliberately would definitely suggest chewing well and taking your time. I have to admit to being an eater of the enthusiastic variety. I don't wolf a meal but do tend to attack it with gusto, so I've had to learn to anticipate that 20 minute lag, lest I overdo it.
Exercise directs blood flow to the skin and muscles and away from the digestive area, so it's better to eat at rest and give your system time to start the digestive process before talking a walk. Also, you have to pay attention to where you're going when you're walking, so I suppose he might say that, with your concentration divided, you're not as able to eat deliberately. Yes, walking is [nearly] always good and there are few things more enjoyable after good food and drink.
I don't know what it says about the shoppers in the supermarket I use that they have to walk past the healthy stuff to get to the crap. Maybe the store thinks that the walk will do them good!
I read quite a bit of Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma but couldn't make it past the part where he describes how, and where, the calves are fattened. I'm not over-sentimental about eating meat, having been born into a farming community I'm somewhat inured to the facts of gastronomy, and I've never been called squeamish but what he described shocked me. In the end, I decided that I was needlessly disturbing myself reading about someone else's problem and stopped reading. Sorry. I'm sure there are callous and mercenary practices applied to farming in the UK and the rest of Europe but nothing, I'm certain, in that league nor on that scale.
In Defence of Food is on my reading pile but it might be a while before it gets to the top.
My favorite Pollan rule:
13 (?): Never eat or drink anything that passed through the window of your car.
Or did I make that up? I've always thought that was one of MP's.
Tom
.
thanks for the laugh. Though I'm told this is actually A Thing in the States.
fer them critters and save a of bucks fryin' them up an eaten'em two!
http://www.amazon.com/Roadkill-Cookbooks/lm/TKOJCLY2PJF1
By law, you can only pick up what someone else has hit, however. I suppose it's to stop people using cars as hunting accessories.
Jon
BTN (Beer Thru Nose) funny. All the more, that I suppose you speak the truth.
Of course, only hit that which you (or a friend) are willing to eat. Just kidding (I guess).
I've never actually had the privilege of eating roadkill, but I did once make a 'coon skin' hat of one, and learned a bit about properly tanning a hide by that.
I don't think eating roadkill is very common in the States (unless you are truly starving), but I know it's been done. Hell, I've probably eaten shepards pie from such sources, without knowing it. Fresh is good.
dobie
Jon
Well stated, all.
I particularly like the explaination of 'Exercise directs blood flow...'. It's kind of like waiting a half an hour after a meal before going swimming, probably good advice. Come to think of it, I never just get up quick after a meal to go for a walk. There's usually a little chatting and finishing of the wine to be done first.
As well, walking and eating is not something I often have the opportunity to do and I think you're correct that it is probably better to do one thing at a time. Walking around NYC on a brisk fall day munching on a hotdog or pretzel from a street vendor is about the only time I really get to do it.
Thanks for the heads up on 'Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma' gory details. I've raised pigs and goats that for all intents and purposes were just pets, and I have participated in a few good old fashioned West Virginia hillbilly community hog slaughters (50 plus from oink to freezer). I have also gutted, skinned, and butchered enough deer (and fish) for one life time. I will skip that part as well. Got that Tee shirt.
I will say that I won't touch, let alone eat, veal or foie gras (even on the job) on moral principles alone. Life is full of contradictions, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
I will also check out 'In Defense of Food'. Thanks for a very good post.
dobie
"There's usually a little chatting and finishing of the wine to be done first."
A man after my own heart. Often the best part of a meal.
"I won't touch, let alone eat, veal or foie gras"
I have no problem with rose veal. In fact, rognons de veau a la moutarde with a full-bodied Pécharmant red comes close to my idea of heaven.
Ahh, Jon
Now you are testing my very rudimentary French. This is a bit of a guess, but by 'rognons de veau a la moutarde' do you mean veal kidneys with mustard sauce?
My only objections to veal are to the sufferings of the animals (at least here in the States) in the production thereof. But to each their own. It is just a personal thing for me, I would not impose it upon anyone else, nor disrespect one who disagreed.
And as long as that 'Pécharmant red' is dry (not sweet), I'd be all over it. Unfortunately, I am a true idiot when it comes to wine (other than liking what I like). I leave the wine course to my very rich cousin (the lawyer) who can't cook much, but knows a bit about wines and knows what I like. It's a match made in heaven.
dobie
But it's white veal for which the calves are kept immobile and fed on a restricted milk diet. Rose veal is just young beef, about six to eight months old, which is older than chickens, lamb or pigs get before we eat them. And the alternative for male calves from the dairy industry is being shot within 48 hours of birth so that we can have their mothers' milk.
The Pécharmant red is, indeed, dry. They're fine Bergerac wines, similar to many wines produced in the neighbouring Bordeaux region but without the premium charged for the Bordeaux name. Drop the name next time you're cooking for your cousin and see if the hint gets taken. Well worth investigating.
Jon,
I had never heard of rose veal before now. I would not have ethical objections to that, only the white veal with the cruelty of immobility. Good to know.
I will definitely drop the hint to my cousin about the Bergerac wines. He will usually make a note of how much a particular bottle costs, but I have found myself enjoying a $5 bottle as well or better than a $100 one.
I don't (yet) like ones that are too tart (I think from tannic acid, if I remember correctly) but do enjoy all the dry, fruity nuances, particularly ones that make me think they would go well with one spice or flavor or another, that can just sort of scream out to me at times. I guess that is what good 'wine pairing' is all about.
Thanks,
dobie
the degree of brutality we are willing to accept to feed this indulgence is a personal choice and it will all seem uncivilized to a vegan. I willingly pay twice the price for eggs from free range chickens because I hate the thought of the caged laying machines. I have had calf but can't say for sure if it was baby beef or true calf meat. I also understand that economics don't allow many people to make those choices.
Gerhard
Gerhard
Well, or omnivores, but I get what you mean and it is a brutal business, much easier to engage in when one is truly hungry without other options.
I've read some disturbing reports on the work arounds some poulty farmers use to satisfy the market standards of 'free range' that in reality end up not being nearly what we thought they would be.
We've recently taken to purchasing our eggs from a local farm stand that gets them from a local grower. We have been able to visit the farm they come from and see the conditions for the hens, to be sure they are in fact what we thought they would be.
Either way, I think it is worth twice the price (or more) just by the quality of the eggs, not to mention a clearer conscience. When I see those deep yellow (really orange) yolks that remind me of those from my own birds years ago, I know I'm into the real thing and that the conditions are probably pretty good. I just don't think they can get that color without access to pecking bugs from the earth (but I could be wrong, I've been fooled before).
dobie
Keeps chickens :-) I get the most delicious eggs in return for my bread.
Fried egg sandwiches, anyone? ;-)
And regarding the obesity epidemic, it's clear from the contents of people's trolleys in the supermarket (this is my own observation, btw) that a majority of them either don't know how to cook or simply can't be bothered. Earlier this year they interviewed some kids on the tv about where food came from, and some of them thought that fish fingers were made of chicken. Go figure...
Me? Well I'm a self-confessed bargain hunter who buys from the clearance shelves, but it's mainly fruit, veg, fresh meat and fish. I cook from scratch most nights - vegetable curry tonight - even if it is something quick and easy. If I've more time, I'll do something a bit fancier, or else I'll just throw something in the slow cooker.
I like junk food as much as anyone (with the exception of sugary drinks which are *bleurgh*) but see it more as a treat than as something to eat regularly.
That's the way to do it, swap fresh bread for fresh eggs. Man, I wish I knew somebody with chickens.
And I agree with everything else you said. I will say that there seems to be more and more of an interest amongst the populace, rich or poor, in eating (perhaps even cooking) 'real food'. I'll bet one could generate a decent living giving even just basic cooking lessons, given the right circumstances.
I was also reading recently that 'sugar free' soda pop and the like, actually can cause people to gain weight, rather than lose it. Something about messing with the bodies signals and such. How ironic.
I never touch that stuff and I am not shy of butter or whole milk or any of the rest of it. Better to eat well and not as much, than some processed food in an attempt to cut 'calories'. A teaspoon of sugar is 15 calories. It's only when you start drinking soda pop with 10-12 teaspoons per can, multiple times a day, that it really amounts to much. The same with whole milk compared to skim.
To take a twist back (closer to the original post), I am serious about, at least trying, to grow some of my own grain. I think next spring I will plant at least a bit and see what kind of return I get. I wonder if the deer would eat it?
I live on Long Island, NY and there is a swath of land nearby (about 300 foot wide) that goes on for miles (power line 'right of way'), with varying types of terrain that would be ideal for some 'guerilla' farming.
Keep eating well. Helps build strong bodies, 12 different ways.
dobie
I'm sure they'd be happy to.
Yes Jon;
I believe you are right about that. But there's only one way to find out, so I'm gonna plant a little any way. If they eat it, then so be it. But there just might be things around that they like a little bit more (or so I'm hoping). I've yet to see a skinny one.
dobie
Are suckers for eating my roses :-p
.
What I *meant* to say was that the blighters here (munjacks and chinese water) make short work of my roses... :-p
Reynard
Oh, they love them some roses. And apples, and hostas and raspberry (fruit and leaf) and I'm sure many other things, but I've never seen one eat a tomato, asparagus or thyme. They might well eat them but I don't know about it. They leave mine alone, but it might just be there's stuff around they enjoy more for some reason.
I just hope they will leave my grain alone.
dobie
...but no Chinese water deer, that I know of. Very strange beasts.
muntjac here, but I have seen water deer in the garden - I live very rural, mostly woodland garden surrounded by arable fields. The water deer have huge ears and the male have tusks, almost like a wild boar. They're bigger than a muntjac and pretty well much the same colour as a fox...
Between the deer and the rabbits, my fruit trees take one hell of a battering :-p
I think they also take all the veg peelings off the compost heap too...
Reynard
Deer with tusks? That would completely change how I felt about Bambi.
I will look up muntjac and water deer.
Other than bucks with antlers half the year, we have nothing like that in the States that I've ever heard of.
Wow, be careful.
dobie
Was quite a shock to the system when I first saw one LOL...
Muntjac are about the size of a GSD, while the water deer are about the size of a Newfie or Leonberger. Neither are native to the UK - they're descended from escapees from some stately home or other around these parts. Apparently muntjac are pretty tasty to eat, but I've never put that particular theory to the test LOL.
It's very rural-meets-urban around here, so I see them as road kill occasionally. I'd have no idea how to butcher one if I got it home, unfortunately.
When living in Paris I had chevreuil, or roe deer, cooked by a Frenchman who'd learned to cook it in Vietnam. It was done in a honey-glaze (which may have had apricot in it?) and easily one of the most delicate and delicious meats I've ever eaten. I'm salivating just thinking about it 40 years later.
I'd love to try muntjac.
I live in a place that would best be described as rural meets sub-urban, but no doubt, it's about the same as where you are. Between the wild where the deer thrive and civilization, where they try to. I too, also see (far too often), road kill deer. Some that I know of distinctively. Sad as it maybe, there is no injustice in eating roadkill, tho I personally have not done it.
While I have (on occasion) gone out with rifle on shoulder to hunt deer, I could never bring myself to take aim, let alone shoot one. The numerous deer I have butchered usually came to me field dressed (gutted and de-glanded). Skinning and butchering from thereon, I am much more familiar with and if you ever want the gory details, I'd be glad to share them with you.
The honey/apricot glazed venison you have eaten sounds delicious.
The one thing that concerns me about wild venison (as well as all wild game) is that it is apparently the major source of trichinella in this modern world. Being naturally low in fat, if not cooked to meduim rare or rare, venison gets tough quickly when cooked beyond that. So medium rare venison might be tasty but also potentially dangerous to ones health. Safer would be low and slow, or braised as in a stew, which also makes some mighty fine dishes.
That being said, I too would like to try muntjac (or at least see one).
dobie
Roasted in the oven and basted repeatedly.
Lard it as well prior to cooking... ;-)
Venison meatballs are good too, especially when popped in the slow cooker with a little stock, a glugette of red wine, bay leaf, thyme, rosemary, black pepper, garlic and lots of caramelized onions. All you need to go alongside that is some creamy mashed potato and some braised red cabbage and you're sorted :-D
Reynard
Doing a little google search and so far the Muntjac deer seem to be just about one genetic mutation away from a Wallaby or Kangroo to my eye.
The White Tail deer here in the States (judging from the Muntjac pictures I've seen) are broader in the hip and shoulders and legs, neck and head included, which is why Muntjac are reminding me of 'roos. I also heard a recording of their bark on BBC and my god, what a ghostly, ethereal sound.
The White Tail deer here are much smaller (100 lbs or so) in the warmer Southern climes than up North, where they can easily get 2-300 lbs. Any deer can be dangerous if cornered (even without tusks or antlers), just by 'rearing up' and coming down on you.
I also saw another bit on BBC 'http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/8303280.stm' where they are saying Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer are the same? Possible or no? Maybe it's the males with the tusks? I have no clue, just guessing. Ah, yet another invasive species.
Either way, those tusks are shocking. I've raised a pig or two with much bigger, broader, razor sharp tusks than that, but at least they were my friends. Those look more like hypodermics than razors. And apparently they are not too fearful.
Scary, indeed.
By Newfie, I'm thinking you mean a Newfoundland Hound (no doubt)? But as to what a 'GSD' or a 'Leonberger' might be, I haven't a clue. I'll probably just look them up anyway (just to see a picture).
Thanks
dobie
Muntjac (muntiacus reevesi) and water deer (hydropotes inermis) are two separate species, though both hail from China.
Muntjac barks are a pretty weird noise, I will admit LOL...
Yes, a newfie is a Newfoundland Hound. A Leonberger is a similar type of breed, while a GSD is a German Shepherd (Alsatian). :-)
Thank you Reynard
I will search further on the deer distinctions shortly. Thank you for being a better editor than those that the BBC employes.
As it turns out, the GSD, I am familiar with (just not by that acronym) and I will find a proper pic of a Leonberger as well.
dobie
There are those of us who are convinced that the BBC Web site no longer employs sub-editors, at least, and scarce few of any other persuasion. Funding cuts...
I just took a book off the shelf to look it up ;-)
Jon and Reynard,
The same thing is happening here in the States. Our local newspaper recently put out a bit of fluff regarding chickens and twice within one week referred to them as 'flightless' birds. Flight challenged, perhaps, but flightless, no way. How would they roost, if nothing else? Fundamental errors (with corrections ignored).
That never would have happened 30 years ago when I worked for them. Everyone, from the top to the bottom of the work force were encouraged to point out any discrepancies they might find along the way.
So it might not just be funding cutbacks, but caring/integrity cutbacks as well.
dobie
...just be funding cutbacks, but caring/integrity cutbacks as well.
A sadly accurate appraisal, I fear. It's extremely common to get a 'so what?' response when you point out errors these days. Ignorance now appears to be something to be proud of.
And don't get me started on poor spelling and even worse grammar. Random apostrophes send my blood pressure through the roof :-p
Shop signs and restaurant menus are the worst culprits it seems. Even trailers on TV aren't immune...
"Big reductions on camera's".
Great, but camera's what?
grammar and spelling robots like Word spell and grammar check, They can't afford real, educated and expensive people doing this menial work anymore when a free doofus can do most of it for free. These organizations also gave up on most fact checking along with the people they let go. Soon, probably in a dozen years or so, robots will do 40% of all current work being done by humans and there won't be any meaningful lobs for these poor souls to move on to either. It is the future, for most humans, to no longer have work to do or work that anyone would pay then a wage for at least.
If you see how many dictionaries end up in charity shops. I still have - and use - the Pocket Oxford dictionary I was issued with when I started senior school back in 1986.
Spell checkers and grammar checkers are useful tools, but they're the same as the fully automated modes on cameras insomuch that they're only as good as the person who writes the computer code for them. Nothing beats having learnt the rules and then applying them... ;-)
...because then you know when you can break them.
Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
I've seen this one before, but it always makes me laugh :-) Language is such a creative thing, isn't it?
cooker that had been in the for for 20 years. I couldn't find it but the wife knew where it was and went right to it.. Made so fine chicken chili verde with it but the onions never got soft because I wanted to go slow and not brown anything off first - like you are supposed to, Now i told her I want a pressure cooker for Christmas and she said I had to learn to cook slow first before learning to cook fast :-) Just can't win sometimes!
dbm
Of course, low and slow is the way to go. But not always.
I only hope Santa remembers to bring you a Stainless Steel, not Aluminium pressure cooker.
dobie
Are the pretty well much the only thing that I'll pre-cook before putting them in the slow cooker. Not so much for texture, but definitely for flavour :-) And a glugette of red wine often doesn't go amiss with things that go in there.
I gave away my pressure cooker, simply because I never use it. All it did was gather dust.
Made a nice pot of tomato and roasted red (bell) pepper soup for tonight. All I need to do is add a sandwich or two on the side and I'm all sorted...
I have wanted a pressure cooker too but already am pushing it with my kitchen stuff. We were at a friend's the other week and they used one to make rice. Too bad I have a nice rice cooker. But at least my wife saw that someone else had one. She would like it for chicken soup I bet. Of course that means I would be making that all the time. Our slow cooker is rarely used.
ETA ... I never knew there were electronic pressure cookers until I saw that one. Seems to be easier than the stove top kind.
pricey. May have to wait for the nuclear fusion electronic ones that will cook anything in 1 second or less.including granite or concrete.
My previous post disappeared..
I love my 'stainless steel', Electric 'Instant Pot' pressure cooker, sautes, rice cooker, steamer, yogurt maker,
slow cooker, perfect soft, medium or hard boiled eggs. Even cooks beans and pasta. Easy and safe. Does it all can't say enough.
I'm not a rep. Just a very satisfied homemaker. Check it out online and you-tube. I saw different prices..home depot online for about $130 or so.
Sylvia
Just what I am looking for. After a lifetime of cooking with natural gas, am now in house that only has electric. So this Instant Pot would probably be more energy efficient than my glass top range, assuming the vessel is insulated. Hmm, now if I manage to pick one up, will have to try it out in a showdown against my SS Presto pressure cooker. Just discovered an Indian food supply in the area, proprietor promised to get in some brown Basmati rice for me. Now I'm stoked!
P.S.: Can you do no-knead/DO breads in that thing?
I have been cooking with pressure cooker's since my MIL gave me one for Christmas over let's say 50 yrs. ago. I own three different sizes of stove top pressure cookers, 2 pressure canners 'one is electric'. My now favorite is this electric one. It's so fun to use and just amazes how it makes perfect rice, veggies and, for me I love soft boiled eggs and they can be done to my exact yolk liking. So steaming being just one of it's many features makes it perfect for 'steamed breads'. It is not a baker type oven, so no you cannot make baked bread DO in it. You can roast a chicken in it, but it's not dry roasted.
I think you will be totally satisfied with it's easy features and power consumption. It's well insulated and does not heat up your kitchen in the summer like using a stove top does or oven.
It also has a timer. You can set some food safe recipes to come on at a set time and it will cook it and keep it warm. Great for those last minute trips to the store and you need to start dinner too.
I just don't know anyone that hasn't been completely happy with an EPC.
Different seller's off different prices and come with different extra goodies. I ordered an extra pot and lid. Mine came with steamer insert and I have found lids from my pots and bowls, other steam inserts and even my bread pudding pot fits in it.
I use manuel settings a lot. But, have found out the auto-programs work fantastic too. It's hard to burn anything because it cooks and then goes into a keep warm setting automatically.
A good on-line site to check out for using the 'Instant Pot' with video's and lot's of recipes with new ones added is..hip pressure cooking.com
Sylvia
PS . You don't have to worry about adjusting the heat and getting the pressure gauge set just right and watching it constantly, like you do a stove top PC. It's perfect too for those afraid of pressure cooking. It has I think over 10 safety features. So no fear of blowing up.
Wonder if you could steam cook bagels in it, with the proper rack. Then pop 'em in a toaster oven for some crust.
Funny but a number of reviewers prefer the way rice comes out in dedicated cookers (someone mentioned that the keep warm feature might be too hot for rice because his got dried out) though most still prefer the Instant Pot for its ease and speed. Not having been used to cooking all that much with electric before (save for my toaster oven) am pretty unfamiliar with all the devices currently on the market, will be another adventure investigating.
A thing I'm curious about, there are no handles on the inserts, is there a safe and easy way to change them out on the fly while still hot?
Am not afraid of pressure cookers, have been using hand-me-down and used Prestos and such for ages. But have never invested in a brand new model, so this is something for me to consider carefully.
Incidentally, when I was a wee lad, my dad was canning Concord grape jelly when the lid blew off the Revere Ware PC. Kitchen purple all over. Cleaning the mess off the new wallpaper was such a lengthy ordeal that we did not make it over to my aunt's place on time, and she called the police. Cop who arrived on the scene was pretty horrified, said the stains would never come out and that we'd have to repaper. But we just lived with it.
andychrist
Regarding Concorde Grape Blowout: Living with ramifications is often the best reminder. Pretty funny, tho sad, as most good theater is.
Thank you for sharing
dobie
I knew someone who had a can of condensed milk explode when he was making dulce de leche. While visiting his parents. They'd only finished decorating the kitchen the previous week, of course. Seems he left it simmering while the family walked to the pub for a drink after dinner...
Jon
Again, good theater, however tragic in the moment.
It will be funny later, perhaps.
dobie
Jon
Also good theater, no matter how tragic in the moment.
dobie
Your post reminded of a recipe I saw once saying to boil a can of condensed milk to make caramel. I would never boil, heat or pressure cook any type of sealed can, it can explode as best to my knowledge.
Sylvia
Sylvia
I think your knowledge is spot on and I would think that while it might be obvious to most, I remember a time when it might not have been so obvious to me as a young, uninitiated cook.
I would hope that the writer of a recipe wouldn't make such assumptions and would mention emptying the can out into a pan, but they don't always do so.
I'm not sure, but I don't think that is what happened in this case. It can get quite ugly unattended even opened out into a pan if left long enough, even at a low heat, I think. You know, 'bubble, bubble, toil and trouble'.
Just guessing.
dobie
it's "Double, double toil and trouble, fire burn and cauldron bubble..." ;-)
Macbeth, Act 4 scene 1 ;-)
'Well, I can do next Tuesday.'
In thunder, lightning or in rain ;-)
Well, I've just seen the weather report LOL
...to do with condensed milk and is a recognised way to make dulce de leche, which is sometimes called 'caramel' although it isn't. Caramel is made with sugar and nothing else.
Thank you Jon
I never would have guessed it to be safe.
dobie
is that if you leave an unopened can of SCM sitting on a shelf for a long enough it will self caramelize, turning a burnt orange color. Makes my vanilla mochas taste like crème brûlée. :)
andychrist
I know you wouldn't say it if it weren't true, but still I have to ask, 'are you serious'? How long did it take to get to that point?
dobie
after only a month or so in my pantry, but the really dark ones might have been hiding from me for years.
Yes, I am a horder.
Thank you Andy
I'm gonna get me a few cans and give them some time.
And if you're not a horder, you have no pantry and probably wouldn't survive a storm too well.
Not that I'm a prepper or anything, but I like to be prepared. As a fellow NY'er, I'm sure you know well that we do get kicked in the plums quite a bit around here by ol' Mother Nature. When the spit hits the fan, with trees down all around, blocking roads and taking down power lines, with 3 feet of snow, even if you could make it to town, there's no gasoline to be had. No power to the gas pumps even if the truckers could get in to deliver it. Plus everyone's running on a generator so whatever did exist, if accessable, is long gone. Things can get real tight, real quick.
When all around is in a panic, I like to know that I can make do for a week or two, perhaps help out a less fortunate neighbor or two. OK, a month or two, but no more. I have my limits.
Seriously, two weeks out before any sense of normalcy returns (as you know), is not entirely uncommon around here. Happens once or twice every year or two.
Call me a horder, but I'm prepared. That's why my mill can be hand operated, regardless of the quality of the grain (see, back on topic).
dobie
I keep Nestles Condensed milk on the shelf for 2-3 years to make sure the color has changed.
The newer cans of Eagle Brand sweetened condensed milk have a tear off lid which might be why they had exploding cans. Back in the '70s I worked in a a restaurant that made caramel sauce by boiling cans of sweetened condensed milk.
Gerhard
Gerhard
Did they really?
Sorry, I know you wouldn't say it if it wasn't so, but that is very surprising.
dobie
I don't know why it would be surprising. They had a large catering business, made their own deserts and used it for plating cheese cakes.
I make caramels pretty much every week and the recipe calls for 10 lbs of sweetened condensed milk. We use to buy it in a 600 lb drum but it became hard to get so now we buy it in #10 tins packed in cases of 6.
Gerhard
andychrist
Sorry that I forgot to say regarding your first part; that I would think it well worth while to try the steaming of bagels before the bake, toaster oven or otherwise. I think it would be very close to the 'boiling', in effect.
Also, personally, I have not had what I would consider great success with 'rice cookers'. They always seem to get a bit over cooked (toasted bottoms) in my experience. But I have Asian friends who swear by them, so I don't know.
dobie
of making bagels. The orthodox method is to boil the risen rounds before baking, but some factories skip that step and simply feed them into steam-injection ovens. I myself would probably boil the rounds prior to cooking the rest of the way through in an EPC, as it would make them a bit easier to handle and the finished product would likely have more of the classic chew. Toaster oven is just to liven up a bit right before consuming, as boiled bagels often seem a bit raw and dense once cooled.
Yeah my Asian friends couldn't live without their rice cookers. But am sure they only prepare white varieties in them. I'm more interested in brown, which of course takes ages longer to cook and can be a bit tricky. Whole organic California Basmati cooks up differently from aged Pakistani grains, and Uncle Bens brown rice is in yet another ball park. Have never tried making any kind of rice in a pressure cooker, it would unnerve me not being able to keep an eye on its progress as the water level drops to the bottom. Suppose with the Instant Pot one could first pressure cook the rice on a shortened cycle, then switch to a glass lid and slow cook til perfectly done. Kinda defeating the "set it and forget it" feature but I'm always so busy preparing the dishes that go along with the rice, it's not like I'd have a chance to leave the kitchen anyway. :p
andychrist
Last things first, I totally agree with you about rice cookers, pressure cookers and the joy of basmati rice, white or brown. I have no idea about Uncle Ben's.
Regarding boiled bagels seeming raw and dense when cooled, well, then they just weren't baked long enough. They are supposed to be dense (in the traditional sense) and a toaster oven should be able to bake them just as well as a full sized one.
Just to confirm my ignorance of many things, I don't know what an 'EPC' is, but I would like to find out. I would imagine steam injected baking might be a suitable replacement for boiling, but I don't know.
In the bagel shop I worked at, they were made the night before (apparently by elves) and left to rise in the walk in fridge. In the morning, boiled, topped and baked, in the traditional manner. Nowadays, even in NY, most of what is sold as a bagel, is not done in this manner and is more like a roll rather than a proper bagel. Not to be a bagel snob or anything (I like them either way), but that's how it is as I know it.
And yes, there are always at least two ways to do anything.
dobie
there were two big local bagel shops, one on Jerome Avenue, the other IIRC on Allerton. The former must have used steam injection only, because their bagels were of the roll-like variety that you mention, prevelant in NYC and probably most elsewhere nowadays. The Allerton bagels which must have been boiled came out smaller and perhaps intentionally under-done so as not to stale so readily, dunno. Pretty similar to Lender's in that regard, just not as cold. ;-)
Lacking a steam injection oven, I always boil my bagel rounds before baking in Romertopf Bagel Bakers, from which they emerge very round and puffy. But the RBBs take up a lot of space in the oven and a long time to preheat. Perhaps layering the rounds on racks inside an Electric Pressure Cooker instead could give equally good results in a shorter time, and consume less power. Might be worth the investment in an Instant Pot, if I can find a good spot for one in my frustratingly awkward kitchen.
BTW if you've never had Uncle Ben's brown rice you're not missing anything.
Hi Andy,
I grew up on Pelham Parkway where Lydig and WPR were the two main shopping streets. We had Rubenstein's bagel shop on Lydig, quite a large operation for a local place. When I was a kid my Father knew one of the bakers, so he'd take me back to watch him. At that time there were huge slabs of dough that the baker would cleave slices off and then roll by hand. This preceded the machines that spit out already formed dough, probably by a few decades. Boiling water and then into an oven with rotating decks inside. Many a winter weekend morning had my brother and me skimming steaming hot bagels off the top of the bag on the short walk home.
I don't know IIRC on Allerton but back in the late 50's/early 60's I really didn't wander "too far" north of our immediate neighborhood. I lived on Waring by BPE and also Allerton past Williamsbridge in the late 70's and early 80's but don't remember IIRC at all.
I recently had bagels at a "famous" place on London's Brick Lane called Beigel Bake. To say the least, the bagels were utterly pedestrian for my palate, but they made a great "smoked salmon and cream cheese" beigel sandwich as well as a tasty "hot salt beef" (corned beef) beigel sandwich. Both quite filling and both quite inexpensive.
alan
There were bakeries on Allerton but they probably didn't make bagels. I only really knew of them all because a classmate of mine lived off Waring on Boston Post Road and he'd bring bagels to Bronx Science and share them with me. When the last of the bakeries on Allerton closed in the mid eighties, his parents moved down to the upper west side, where H&H bagels were still widely available.
The shop closest to me on Jerome Avenue, under the elevated, sold bagels at 69¢ a baker's dozen and made a sesame garlic that was my favorite. Don't think any other place did that combo, and when it was taken over by new management those were discontinued in favor of honey wheat, which were also very good but just not quite the same. But that outfit soon closed anyway. (Nowadays I make my own sour dough rye bagels with garlic, sesame, caraway, fennel and poppy seeds, and nobody can stop me!)
In the early eighties, there was still a Kosar's on my block way over in Alphabet Town. Their bagels were notoriously inedible but their bialys rocked. Last I checked the one down on Grand was still in business but I think they may only have made bagels there, weird.
Andy and Alan,
I did not realize you both have NYC in you and know true bagels. And yes, about the rotating decks in the oven.
I'm a Long Island boy but got into town quite frequently. As well as bagel shops, fond memories of the small 'Mom & Pop' deli's that made their own corned beef and/or pastrami. Same with the corner pizza joint with 10 cent slices and fried calzones for a quarter. I went to eat.
dobie
It's too tourist-y...
You want bagels in London, you've got to go to Stoke Newington or Stamford Hill ;-)
Hi Reynard,
We were staying literally around the corner from Beigel Bake halfway between that and Box Park. It was the local joint. Good info though for us foreigners.
alan
I'm North London born and bred :-)
Hi Reynard,
We were staying literally around the corner from Beigel Bake halfway between that and Box Park. It was the local joint. Good info though for us foreigners.
alan
EPC, I understand and thank you. Now, as to what a 'Romertopf Bagel Bakers' is, I haven't a clue, but I will Google it.
Thank you Andy
My IP came with a very handy steam insert that has a flip up wire handle. You can also use it for setting things in and picking them up and out using it like a tray with a handle. Or you make a foil flat wrap to go under a bowl or whatever vessel used and just lift it out. There was also a wire set in rack for just setting things on. Most things requiring water added to the pot you use only 1 cup of water.
I haven't yet just boiled water in it but it does boil and does steam. I saw on you tube a lady uses it for cooking all her husbands meals in because they are trucker's and meals are prepared in the truck. She has a lot of choices for meals with the IP.
Grape out! What a mess, glad no one was hurt. That's the thing with stove top PC's. You have to adjust the heat just right for gauge to work properly and you need to keep an eye on the pot while it's cooking. You can't just forget about it.
The IP takes a little while to heat up and then it goes into timed mode set. It tells you how to release steam. 3 choices on that, depending on what's cooking.
If you forget about the IP..it takes care of its self and keeps the food warm.
I would have answered sooner but it's been a wonderful day. I went to a meditation class, dinner and wine at the spa and jacuzzi. What a treat of a day . I didn't cook! Not even easy IP : )
Sylvia
PS There are times and setting for all rice varieties at www.hippressurecooking.com. I also have cooked 3 white varieties/brown/and even the grain wild rice...haven't done my black rice yet, very confident about it being great. I like the way it cooks the rice better than my rice cooker.
I just noticed if you click on the link above. The price you see for the ad for the IP..that's the most expensive model because it just comes with an Ap. Program. Not necessary IMHO..
is like half that price on Amazon, about $125 and has been as low as $100 on one of their special sales. I'll probably wait for something like that to happen again, am in no rush right now as haven't even finished unpacking from my move back in August. :eek: Agree the Bluetooth model is quite unnecessary, not to mention my iPad has been all screwy lately anyway. No need to complicate things any further. When an app is capable of peeling, coring and dicing onions, then we'll talk...
Thanks again for the detailed response, Sylvia. Glad you enjoyed your day. Now, back into the kitchen and get to work. ;-)
as the company was offering a package deal that included the silicone mini mitts as well as the glass lid for like the same price as the pot alone is going for right now on Amazon, after NY sales tax.
So is there a setting on the Instant Pot that works to proof [sour]dough?
My old Presto Pressure Cooker seems to have warped/puffed out a bit on the bottom such that it doesn't make very good contact with the surface of my ceramic stovetop. Plus it leaks enough steam at pressure that it takes almost as long to cook brown rice or chick peas as in a regular ole stock pot. Very much looking forward to to preparing healthful hearty dishes with the Instant Pot once it arrives. Thanks again for the tip, Sylvia!
with your new electric pressure cooker.
I sent you a private message.
Sylvia
Sylvia
I will check that out. If it can go from making yogurt to pressure cooking and is SSteel, that would be very intrigueing. Would that be appropriate for 'pressure' canning as well?
dobie
Pressure cooker's and Pressure canner's are different.
I pressure cook and pressure can. It's very important you understand the difference.
" Would that be appropriate for 'pressure' canning as well?" No it would not.
I added a site in above www.hippressurecooking.com. Here you can find information explaining a great deal about both pressure cookers and pressure canners. Also, information about a model of a pressure cooker on the market that says it pressure cans and why it is not safe.
Go to www.hippressurecooking.com and click on the tab above that says 'tips and info' - pressure canning.
Sylvia
Thank you Sylvia
I checked out that link and there was a fair amount of information available.
From what I'm gathering (and please correct me if I'm wrong), while you shouldn't can in a pressure cooker, you could pressure cook in a pressure canner. Of course, trying to find one in stainless steel is apparently not easy.
I'd think somebody would have tapped that market by now, but apparently not. I just can't afford the counter or cabinet space for two items so similar. One multi-tasker, I might be able to find a place for, but not two uni-taskers. I'd have to ditch a large pot to make the space for the one, as it is. It's a small 'ship' I live in.
But thank you again for the info and link. You've got me searching.
dobie
so fruits and picked vegetables may be processed in just a water bath. For tomato products, it is recommended to add citric acid to lower the pH for safety; the small amount called for should not be noticeable in the taste. I've put up cases and cases of fruits, pickles, sauces, chutneys and relishes without incident using this method. Only non acid foods such as meat and dairy dishes or whatever need be pressure canned. Somehow I imagine the demand for that kind of usage would be pretty slim around these parts. ;-)
True that any canner will take up a lot of space. But at least the water bath models have fairly thin walls and rolled rims, so it is easy to nest other pots inside. A 7 quart-jar capacity GraniteWare will set you back less than 20 clams, fairly affordable even for such a narrow use utensil. There are more expensive bathers in stainless steel but IMHO that's overkill, as no food will actually be exposed to the pot in canning, just water. Suppose the multi-use variety would make a good stock pot for a small army, and the stainless would last longer (GraniteWare can rust if the porcelain gets chipped or the finish comes from the factory marred around the welds.)
Hi andy
Just to be clear, I have only done water bath canning to this point. Mostly pickles and beach plum jam. With both of them, supposedly the acid and sugar content is my safety valve, so to speak.
I don't know why one would need to add citric acid to tomatoes, but apparently you do (per USFDA reg's). And as I understand it, most (or at least many) fruits and veg that aren't pickled, need either acid added or need to be 'pressure canned' to be safe. I could be wrong, but that's what I've read. That is to explain why I'm thinking about a pressure canner.
I live in a very small house by modern standards (1000 sq ft or so), two blocks from the water, and we are not looking to sell it or move (we will die in this house). It is relativley easy to clean and maintain and all we would care to handle.
That being said, it is like living on a ship. If I want to buy a new pot, pan or whatever, something is going to Goodwill to make space for it.
I am not familiar with GraniteWare, but I will look it up.
Price is not really an issue (within reason) but I wish I could buy a Stainless Steel Pressure Canner that could also be used as a Pressure Cooker. So far as I know, that doesn't exist at any price.
I hope I'm wrong, and that you or someone else can guide me to such a device. I have burned way too many hours on the web in that persuit, only to come up empty.
I hope I haven't been rude, it's late and I'm very tired.
dobie
in adding acids to produce if that will make it safe for canning. Then again I am a sour puss and love the taste of citric and ascorbic acids. FruitFresh helps retain color so all the sour cherries, peaches, and assorted other fruits I've preserved stay looking great for ages. You seem to have survived your own canning endeavors thus far so why worry.
Incidentally, when I was a wee lad, one summer day my dad took my brother along with him picking beach plums along the North Shore, where we were vacationing. Not such a good plan as it turned out because the trees there were generously festooned with poison ivy, to which my brother was highly susceptible. So for the next week he was pink all over with calamine lotion. I have no memory whatsoever though of how the beach plum jam turned out, guess my dad didn't blow that one up at least.
in adding acids to produce if that will make it safe for canning.
You're absolutely right Andy. Generally, neither do I. I guess I'm just looking to expand my capabilities.
Actually (at least as store bought goes), I don't much like canned veg. Peas are the worst to me followed closely by corn and the rest. The only ones I don't mind are beans and tomatoes.
And you're right, having survived so far, why worry? I try to boil everything for 20 minutes (or so) and try to be careful regarding any contamination. So far, so good.
When the bing cherries and the Jersey peaches come in, I process and freeze 20 to 30 pounds of each, which usually lasts me pretty well thru the winter. But I've been thinking about canning some as well, just to see how they would be. Pretty good, I'd imagine, altho they'd be cooked a bit, which the frozen ones aren't.
Folks around here hold their Beach Plum locations pretty close to the vest. They usually come in between mid-August and the first week of September. Some years the crop is great, others, pitiful. Something about how cold and wet April is, I've been told.
Regarding Poison Ivy; I too have never seen a stand of Beach Plums without a healthy PI population around it. Up until I was 28 years, I could roll around in the stuff (literally) and not get the rash. Since then (like your brother), all I have to do is walk by it and I seem to get it. I go to great lengths to protect myself when picking.
Beach plums are very tart and only slightly sweet. I don't know if they are actually 'plums' or not, but their little pits look just like a miniature form of a plum pit.
Most people make 'jelly' and use way more sugar than I care for. I prefer jam. After cleaning out any debris or bruised fruit, I put them in a big pot and add water up to about half the volume of plums. Low simmer until they collapse down. If I had a food mill, I would use it next, but a collander works pretty well at straining out the pits and skins. I usually pick out the skins as best I can and puree them in the food processor and add them back to the mix. I try to cook it all as little as possible and that helps preserve a fresher flavor, in my opinion.
At this point, you can just put the mash into containers and freeze (for years) or can proceed to make jam right away. I usually use Low or No Sugar pectin and not as much as most would. My jam is slightly runny and tart. You can pour it on top of ice cream (or cottage cheese) or whatever, like chocolate syrup or butterscotch.
If your dad blew up a pressure cooker of this stuff, believe me, you'd remember. I'm sure you could dye cloth with it.
I'm still gonna look for a stainless steel Pressure Canner just to expand a bit.
dobie
...Michael P (and I) were referring to that quintessentially American gastronomic convenience of drive-in and drive-through food and drink served through the driver's side window.
Not roadkill that crashes through the windscreen. Obvious to some, but perhaps not all who stumble on this meandering thread.
t
...I'm sorry to say, but I have an odd sense of humour which I don't always manage to restrain. Sorry.
Oh, please Jon,
Don't think you might have anything to be sorry about with what you say. I find your humour pleasant and insightful (pig's trough or not).
dobie
bit only for their Frosty Shake for a buck on their dollar menu and I go though MickyD's drive though for their chocolate dipped ices cream cone for 79 cents. Beats the heck out of Dairy Queen. I figure its OK since ice cream, not that this stuff is since it is probably non dairy ice cream fake stuff, is its own special separate food group and it is hot in AZ.
I grew up in the West Bronx and the local bagel factory/bakery was on Nelson Avenue. It was manned by Local 338 bagel bakers. They started with a giant block of dough that was refrigerated until it was entirely cooled. Then they would cut 2 inch slab and from that would cut a 2 inch square rope. The left hand would roll the rope into a round shape and the piece would be wrapped around the right hand, snapped off, sealed with a rolling motion and then placed on a wooden tray. They could crank out 70-80 bagels in a minute. It sounds like a lot, but the bagel machines can triple that amount easily. I don't remember the formed bagels being put in a walk n cooler. I think they just let them rise for 15 minutes and then the bagels would go into simmering water for 1-2 minutes. After that, they were placed on 6-7 foot long boards that were shoved into the oven. Some bakeries used wet burlap lined boards. However this bakery used plain redwood boards. Once the bagels turned brown, they were flipped over until the other side was browned. The baskets were on the floor, and once the bagels were finished baking, they were dropped into the baskets. Back in those days, all the bagels were "naked", with no toppings. I moved to southeast Asia 9 years ago and have been baking bagels and bialys for the other expats here. I need to add gluten, diastatic malt and malted barley to the flour to replicate the type of flour that used to be used for bagels. I mix the dough and refrigerate it for 20 hours. I form the bagels (I am much slower than the professional bakers and I first roll the dough into a dog bone shape before I roll and seal them). I boil them in water into which I add baking soda and a dash of molasses, and bake them on teak wood planks. The results are close to what I remember the old bagels to be. Crisp and tough on the outside with a tender interior.
Your description of how they were hand made is exactly what I recall, including the long burlap lined boards that were loaded into the ovens as well as the big baskets on the floor. I was mesmerized by how fast this fellow was rolling them. I recall that there were some choices, but nothing like today. The salt bagels, with enough salt to scare any cardiologist in this century, were a main attraction. Along with onion, sesame, poppy and garlic. Also pumpernickel and rye bagels.
How those bakers didn't wind up with repetitive motion job injuries is beyond me. Probably did, but that was more than a half century ago and things have changes radically with regard to workplace injuries.
If those are your bagels, they are certainly a thing of beauty.
alan
This was an article that appeared in the NY Times a while back with a little history of the NYC bagel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/31/dining/was-life-better-when-bagels-were-smaller.html?pagewanted=all
jaltsc
You have accomplished what I thought would be near impossible. From Alan's original post (from a week ago) of 'NY Times Article Today, 'Bread Is Broken' back to the NY Times and 'Was Life Better When Bagels Were Smaller?'. Full circle, I suppose.
That is an excellent link. Thank you.
dobie
This was an article that appeared in the NY Times a while back with a little history of the NYC bagel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/31/dining/was-life-better-when-bagels-were-smaller.html?pagewanted=all
jaltsc
We used the burlap boards and flipped half way thru the bake as well. I think ours were only about 3 foot wide or so, but the same idea.
I never made the dough or formed them, only boiled and baked, but yes, then into the baskets to be carried to the front. As I recall (as a customer), toppings didn't really come in until the late sixties, early seventies.
I also never prepared the 'bath' but I wouldn't be surprised if it had lye or baking soda and molasses in it.
Just about every recipe I've ever read of for bagels includes a bit of malted barley (usually syrup) in the mix. At home, I make them with just a kiss of molasses and a touch of diastatic rye malt. Works pretty well.
How are your bagels recieved by the native SEAsians? They sound pretty authentic.
dobie
dobie:
I have never seen such abominations passing for bagels than I have seen here. Basically, people have heard that bagels are popular in the west and would sell well. Most of the bagels here are nothing more than a white bread dough, rounded, flattened and then poked through the center. The result is a dried out piece of baked dough. Whenever I bake them, I have at least 7 or 8 people coming over for them. I don't sell them. Just give them to those who will appreciate them. There are a few Thais who notice the difference and really like them.Although they only put jam on them. Surprisingly, smoke salmon is available here. Nowhere near the quality of Russ and Daughters, but all things considered, for me it's a small blessing. I am sure if I wanted to, I could have a fairly successful business here with bagels, bialys, rye bread, smoked fish (I smoke my own and make a faux whitefish salad), along with my cheese cakes, babkas, ruglach and other NYC specialties. However, I just bake them once a week. I also smuggled in a case of Fox's U-Bet for egg creams. I hoard that stuff as though it were gold. The one thing I make that has people scratching their heads is Celery Soda. I use celery seeds and Chinese celery alopng with a little vanilla extract to make the syrup. People don't understand why anyone would want to drink Celery soda. Obviously, they are not from the city. I know Dr. Browns still make it, but I also remember an old soda company, Meyer's that also made it in the 50s and early 60s.
jaltsc
Last things first. Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray Soda, if I recall correctly. I don't drink a lot of soda these days but that, sasparilla, root beer and cream are my favorites (and in that order, the only ones I would consider for a proper 'float'). And when I buy commercial chocolate syrup, U-Bet is the only one left (that I know of) that is worth a damn and somehow, still pretty inexpensive.
I was so young when I bought egg creams regulary (mixed in your face by the soda jerk) and as I understand it, it was only chocolate syrup, milk and seltzer - no egg. That's right, yes? At least I don't remember seeing any eggs in the process.
Unfortunately, the state of the Bagel even in NY (at least the LI part) is little if any better than SEAsia, with rare exceptions.
I think it admirable that you share so willingly with those in the know. While I don't know your circumstances, it sure sounds like you could open up a small and successful bakery/breakfast/lunch shop there.
If you would like, you buy and I'll fly (regarding shipping out some U-Bet).
Any chance you might share your process/recipe for homemade celery syrup?
Thanks again,
dobie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_xTIrT_aiI&feature=youtu.be
I like Stan Ginsberg's old school SD bagels and they should have the well topped, browned, heavily blistered, thin but crispy crust and that NY moist chewy crumb. Hard to find these now a days
These are 27% whole multi grain
dbm
Yeah, that's exactly right. For the brief time I worked at the Bagel shop, that is pretty much exactly how it was done. Good find.
I will check out Stan later.
I would imagine it would be pretty hard to come by such a bagel in AZ unless you made them yourself.
Thanks for the vid.
dobie
dobie:
I am retired and the cost of living in the mountains of Thailand allows me to live extremely well on Social Security and a few small investments (Rent, food, entertainment, etc., and a lot of traveling to other Asian countries and Europe). So, work is not an option I want to consider. Although I've tried to teach a few people here how to make my style of bagels, only one has followed through and she does a very good breakfast business in her cafe.Now for the celery soda recipe:
Celery Soda
1 teaspoon dried celery leaves
2 cups granulated sugar
1 cup water
2 tablespoons celery seed
¼ teaspoon Vanilla extract
Sparkling water
To make Dried celery:
Collect the leaves from celery tops and lay them in a single layer, not touching, on a Silpat- or parchment-lined baking sheet. Dry them in the oven at 200°F until they shrivel and get crunchy (however, note that sometimes they won’t feel crunchy until they cool for a minute). Small leaves will dry faster, of course, but the process should take 5 minutes or so.
Once dry, crumble the leaves and pour into a spice bottle. Store in your pantry for several months.
To make the syrup:
Toast the celery seeds in a skillet on medium high heat until they lightly brown and become fragrant; about five minutes. Once they’ve cooled slightly, grind in a spice mill or coffee grinder.
Meanwhile, place the sugar and the water in a medium saucepan over medium-high heat. Stir frequently until the sugar dissolves. Remove from heat and add the celery seed and dried celery leaves; stir, cover, and steep for 1 hour. Strain though a fine mesh strainer into a glass bottle or jar, add vanilla and refrigerate until cool. This can be stored for several months.
To drink, combine 2-3 tablespoons of syrup to about one cup of sparkling water.
Enjoy,
Jaltsc
Jaltsc
I am glad to hear that life is good in the mountains of Thailand. Also good that you have been able to pass on to another the knowledge of bagels, particularly one who can successfully share it with others thru a business.
Thank you so much for the Celery Soda recipe. It is all very clear and concise. I will start on it in the morning (all of the ingredients are on hand). Ahh, vanilla, who would of guessed? (but it makes perfect sense).
Thank you so much. I will now amaze some friends (and of course, share the recipe).
dobie
I feel like a proud papa. My innocent post has morphed into its own monster and touched on just about everything save for incarceration for wayward quadrupeds (or did I miss that one), world domination (oops, Lucy had paw prints on that issue the other day) and sheep shearing in the South Island of New Zealand. Other than that, we pretty much have it all covered - with more to come, I assume. Carry on...
alan
alan,
You should be well proud, papa. It's been a great week.
I think the nerve you struck with the NYTimes report on Stephen Jones incited a monster riot here not only regarding quality of ingredients (grain), but technique, heart and soul as well.
I know that it has been quite a 'meandering thread', but also quite true to form as well.
I have learned a lot, and this coming week will be different for it.
I thank you (and of course I will be checking back in the AM).
dobie
Articles on the types of commercial white flour and their inferior nutritional value are nothing new. Articles on the inferior quality of commercial "whole wheat" flours available in the US are nothing new.
Grain mills for the home baker that produce a fine flour from a variety of whole grains are widely available for about $300. If you want to use whole grain flour in your breads, do the research and buy one best mill suited for your needs. Refrigerate or freeze any extra flour you may mill for future use.
I am a home bread baker who has been milling my own flour for over 25 years. Hard wheat and rye are the most common grains used for milling bread flour and I have purchased organic hard wheat and organic rye from many sources over the years. The best hard wheat for bread comes from the Dakotas, Montana & Kansas (see http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4632/major-wheat-growing-regions-us-reference-maps )
For the last 4 years I've been working with organic hard red winter wheat grown in NY. This has been a learning process as the gluten-forming ability of grain from NY is much inferior to that from the north-west and mid-west states in the US. Learn the provenance of your grain and how to adapt your bread making to the type of flour it produces.
Best of luck to all the home millers here on TFL.