The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

follow up question to another post

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

follow up question to another post

- can't remember whose.  The comment related to Forkish breads and internal temperature and the crust.  My question is - what is the impact of baking longer just to get that deep dark crust thay Ken strives for even though internal temperature may have already hit 209°F. I can achieve a nice brown crust but not dark or as brittle as his.  I bake at about 440°C for 20 mins in DO rest of time about 15 mins uncovered.  Does the crumb dry out more if left in longer?  will it stale more easily?

I have also found using my DO on a stone gives a quite hard crust underneath making loaf hard to cut but last time dropped the stone one rung in the oven and put DO just on oven rack.  I feel crust is a little thinner and is easier to cut.  do others have this issue as well?

Leslie

Maverick's picture
Maverick

If it is already at 209, then it isn't really going to go any hotter (at most 212 and usually more like 210 max). So there won't be any difference in the crumb. Now if you can get it dark enough while keeping it at about 205, then it might make a difference.

I put my DO on a rack as well with the stone on the rack below it. I also usually use a cold bottom part of the DO while heating the top part (well I use the combo so the skillet is the bottom and not heated and the bigger DO part is heated to cover). But I have heated both and don't have issues. I also use parchment paper cut in a circle.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

 if you have the bottom part cold?  wouldn't it slow the process down?

Maverick's picture
Maverick

I still get the spring because of the steam created and the sudden heat. I have tried it with the bottom heated as well and there was absolutely no difference. I tried it with the entire DO cold, but that didn't work for me. I think I needed to have it covered for longer with that method, but since I can't see the bread it was harder to time right. Heating the top portion is easy enough and probably the time it takes to heat it is the extra amount of time I should have waited. Having the bottom portion cold makes it easier to load and adjust without the rush. Of course if I have two loaves then the second one will have the bottom hot.

Thanshin's picture
Thanshin

You mean 440ºF (225ºC), right?

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I missed that - thank you 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

Or rather, how large is it compared to KF's recipe? If it's larger it will take longer to achieve KF's bold crust. Have you double-checked the calibration on your oven? It may be lower than you think. I'd suggest doing this then following KF's timings and temps slavishly. I suspect he tends to go for higher temps and (relatively) shorter bakes than many other bakers precisely because he wants to achieve his look whilst avoiding the legitimate issue you raise.

I echo that question about the cold DO. Why would you choose to do that? Doesn't KF say you should heat the DO, pop the dough in and then place the lid on top? Anything else would slow the bake and achieve exactly what you're worried about.

BTW, Ken also has a whole series of videos on YouTube that accompany FWSY. The one about baking with a Diutch oven is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtoMhY0vS9E&spfreload=10

Got some great additional tips in it too!

 

 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Than Ken's - I divide recipe into 1 x 750 gm batard and 2 x 500 gm batards as I have the bannetons. Maybe I will try as you suggest, check temperature again (I have checked once before and it wasn't far off the mark) then bake at his recommended temperature.  I felt maybe his slightly higher temperature added to the hard  base but now I have lowered the stone, I would be ok with the higher temperature. 

thanks for the info on youtube, will watch them later today.

Leslie

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

thank you, it all helps.  just seeing his techniques rather than reading is very helpful.  Can't wait till next bake day in a couple of days time!!

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the lid comes off, and finish baking on the stone the bread bottoms will be perfect and over done, I turn the heat down to 425 F after the lid comes off and turn the convection on. This whisks the moisture off the crust. Caramelizationjwon't begin until it is gone and the carbohydrates (gelatenized starches on the crust that the steaming put there) react under heat over 350 F and a reducing sugar to brown the crust. An acid environment also promotes caramelization and why SD bread browns so much better than non SD ones. The Maillard effect also browns bread, but to a much, much lower degree when the amino acids in the proteins also react with a reducing sugar, in the absence of water (why you should dry meat before trying to brown it), to brown things - but there is little protein in bread and lots and lots of starch and carbos...... so the main way bread gets brown is caramelization not the Maillard reaction.

So to get brown bread turn on the fan )convection after the lid comes off) make sure there are enough residual sugars (think autolyse) and that the temperature is high enough to really get caramelization in high gear. Baking bread is pretty much just science and math - who knew both would rule the world after school:-)

Happy browning

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

since finding out that my breads were better baked without it.  Using a DO obviously changes that and I have noticed that you use the convection in later part of baking.  so.... next time, I will try as you suggest and see how it goes.  

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Even without a DO, you want to steam without the convection. Then you can turn on the convection after venting.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

says, if you don't use a DO or other covered method then you bake with steam and no fan until the steam comes out and then you lower the temp 25 F and turn on the fan to promote browning of the crust.  This is something I learned here from David Snyder but didn't find out why this works until researching caramelization.

So,no matter how you bake, you bake without fan under steam or lid and then with fan after steam comes out or lid comes off.

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

Baking stone and cast iron DO?

Do I understand I may get a thinner crust if I use the stone in the oven at the same time as I bake in the DO?  That is assuming I follow pretty much the same process time and temp.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

of the oven 5 minutes after the lid comes off and let it finish baking on the stone.  The bottoms will over bake and get hard otherwise, - at least that is my experience.  Thin crusts are another matter.

I get thinner crusts by baking right out of the fridge or the dough being cold, using Mega Steam for less time,10-12 minutes instead of 15-18 and a stone for and baking at a lower temperature,425 F instead of 450 F and then turning down the oven to 415  F convection after the steam comes out.  This seems to give me a thinner crust on SFSD style large boules

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

lots to think about on next bake :)

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

I followed your advice.  I got a much more pleasing upper crust in particular.  The bottom of the loaf was also much more agreeable for slicing.  I hate to ask for a good knife for Christmas but somehow I think that's the way it's going. 

Despite the fact that I did not do a cold retard with the loaves (two WW basically morning bread for toasting - one slice per day whether you need it or not) the crust was still much nicer.  The scoring on a wet loaf like that (80% hydration) is still hit and miss for me.   I got one lovely shaped loaf and one a little more pancake shaped.  Both had a good rise and are quite light for a WW loaf.  But it always surprises me that one can produce two loaves with the same methods and have them come out of the oven so different.  Just like DMsnyder's lesson some time back - one scored well and one not so well.

Once again, thank you for sharing your methods.

Jane Dough's picture
Jane Dough

Thx for that answer.  Apologies if I hijacked anyone's thread. 

No problem with burning.  Just no idea how to manipulate crust thickness.  That's great info 

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I find I get a thinner crust if I add a tablespoon of oil or butter. With that little oil I don't notice much difference in the crumb, but the crust seems to still turn out crispy, but thinner... which my teeth thank me for.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

You know Lucy will do it - butter is one of the great things that can make up its own food group!

KathyF's picture
KathyF

I kind of figured it out myself. I had split a batch of dough into 2 and used one for olive bread that included some olive oil. That loaf turned out with a crust that was thinner and a little more tender, but still crispy. I have been using a little butter or oil in my regular loaves and it seems to hold true. I do like a nice chewy crust, but I am getting to the point that I need to be a little more careful with my teeth. No more corn nuts for me!

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

thin crust is another thing I strive for so really happy to have any and all input! thanks Janet