The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Alien / Eye shaped bread

aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

Alien / Eye shaped bread

hello, 

i seem to have this happening to my breads quite often and am not too sure why. i thought it might be due to some of the dough being too close to the cooling / freezing part of my fridge and the dough being 'frozen' when entering the oven, but it now also seems to happen when leaving the dough to prove for an hour before baking it.

On my last bake this happened only to one loaf out of 7 baked at the same time.

Any idea / suggestions? Could it be the shaping? They all are shaped at the same time by the same hands... 

 

Thank you!

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

At the moment it looks under-proved.  Got a crumb shot?  

How long was it sitting in the banneton? .

aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

thank you both. i have the feeling it might mainly be proving time. see crumb shot attached, which i thought was quite good (the crumb, not the shot). the breads have about 3 hours from salted to final shape (in bannetons) and then about 19h (this time, usually a few hours less) in the fridge at about 3C-4C deg. i then give them about 45-60min proving before baking. i measured the dough temp when out pf fridge was 5C and about 5.6C when i loaded them in oven. 
Any clue?

MisterTT's picture
MisterTT

picture it look like the seam may have been folded over the side of the loaf. 

But Mini is still right -- proofing more would fix that problem either way.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

end you're showing us.  See how the middle looks like it's traveling right into our faces? Bubbles in the middle taper away to points.  That mass of bubbles was kept from expanding, found a weak spot at the end (where we are) broke through and gave birth.  The oven temp looks right on target.

Partially under-proofing but added to it,  the crust might be drying out in the fridge constricting the rise.  Are you covering the loaves or putting them inside bags?  If not, try a few retarded loaves inside bags overnight and see if there's a difference.  Try a score not down the middle but a little more to one side with the blade on a parallel plane as the table and just a teeny tiny bit deeper.

If you want a finer crumb (either way looks good) could try bulk rise in a large flat box so it cools quickly, divide and shape in the morning for a short few hours in bannetons.

aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

thank you! great explanation, thank you. i will try covering some breads over night as well as longer proof. i am now retarding them in a normal kitchen fridge (not a cold room / walk in fridge and no fan, hopefully soon!) and it could be that some parts do dry the skin a bit too much. I usually score breads the way you describe it, so am not thinking it might be this, as i think all breads in this batch were scored in the same way... thanks again and i ll keep you posted. xx

aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

hello, thanks again for your comments. breads starting to look better slowly. still seem to have them slightly unbalanced with one side (darker baked) having less volume and the other one (less baked) much better volume, resulting in an unbalanced shape. this makes me wondering if i should bake them at lower temp (now 205C top heat, 200C bottom heat), which i think is already pretty low. Bake time = 21min with steam, 21 open vent.

Any comment / suggestion?

 

thanks!

xx

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Are you rotating the loaves in the oven as they bake?  Moving them around to avoid hot spots?

I don't see any expansion at all on the banneton dough surface.  I suspect they are drying out too much in them.  Can you shorten the time in the baskets?  Perhaps a different flour in the baskets might make a difference.

aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

Mini Oven, thanks for getting back. Yes, i rotate them when opening the vent, but i have the feeling this might be happening before though, no? 
Yes, they have a small crust on the seam side when in the banneton. i will try covering them with a cloth when in the fridge.

I am using a mix of 50% white wheat and 50% rice flour to dust my banneton. 

 

Am not sure what you mean by 'I don't see any expansion at all on the banneton dough surface.' could you explain?

thanks!

xx

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to put it simply, is to hold the dough while it is rising.  At the same time it is drying and compacting the dough "skin" or surface by drawing out some of the moisture in the dough as it touches the basket and the flour used to keep the dough from sticking.  This layer of reduced moisture is basically what holds the dough together as it bakes.  It makes for a tighter surface to score and retains the design/texture lines of the basket.  Now hold this thought.  

Now for my comment:   'I don't see any expansion at all on the banneton dough surface.'   

All of the skin should stretch a little bit as the dough heats up in the oven.  When I look at the crust in the photos, it looks like it didn't stretch, not even a tiny bit while it baked.  The crust browned, and the loaf opened at the score but the remaining crust looks original to the banneton size.  Which is why I mention it.  

Exposed dough even covered with cloth, can dry too much if the dough is exposed to air with a lower humidity than the dough itself.  The longer the dough lies in the banneton, the more moisture the reeds pull out of the dough.  What I suspect is that the dough is too dry on both the basket and the exposed surface when it is flipped out.  The dough is tight when it goes into the oven so instead of stretching all around as it expands in the heat, the heat sets the already dry skin and the score expands a bit more than it should.  

Several solutions I might try one at a time.

  • shorten the time spent in the banneton or
  • dust the banneton with a less absorbent flour to keep the skin moister
  • raise the hydration of the dough 
  • bagging each loaf or covering with moist towels while rising.
aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

mini oven,

wow, thank you! 
ok, i ll try these and let you know! xx

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

If you can't get away from the dryness of the crust when scoring (due to conditions you can't control or vary)  you might want to re-evaluate the banneton imprint left on the dough when turning it out.  I can tell you are after a particular "look" to your loaf but you might have to make some small additions to it to make it "work."    

Add more cuts so the dough can expand in more ways.  

Try parallel cuts or radiating cuts from the original score.  Connect the lines or leave bands of firmer dough between them.  Draw a bunch on paper and imagine the dough movement as it expands in the oven.  

Roughly speaking:

  • Strictly parallel lines will expand   <- III ->  directly outward.  
  • Diagonal lines v /// ^ will give a more twisted result.
  •  A star, X, flower, snow flake cuts (connected in the middle) with explode the dough straight up.  
  • The same cuts not connected will be flatter as the cuts expand like a net and hold down the middle.  
  • Concentric circles will raise the loaf like a wedding cake.  
  • a one line spiral, will raise it more gradually 
  • a Palm leaf is in reality a zig-zag and like your hands closed with the fingers overlapping will expand in the middle as you pull them apart.

 It might be helpful to look not at the cuts themselves but to look at the flat surfaces that remain of the dough skin.  

To help with this sort of thinking on the existing cut you already have, take a top view picture of a loaf and print it out.  Take a scissors and cut off the outside background.  Now cut into 3 basic parts and push them back together to make the loaf.  It should look like two quarter moon shapes and an oval in the middle.  Now take your scissors and carefully cut the moon shapes and separate them slightly to show dough expansion experimenting with the "look" of the dough.  (you may have to cut some off the expanded part)   It is tricky going from a flat piece of paper to a three dimensional loaf but you should get the idea that the surface or tight dough will not move much and remain as flat sections or bands on the loaf surface as the inside expands and pulls on the bands.   

Have fun,  Mini

aalexbettler's picture
aalexbettler

Mini, many thanks for this and apologies for the slow reply.. busy baking! 

A quick unrelated question: am guessing you are not based in London UK, but if so let me know as i definitively owe you a beer! 
+

I have the feeling that the issue i partly fridge related. Since i use a domestic fridge, the back wall of the fridge is its colder part, and the side of the breads closer to the 'cold wall' are usually less developed. I have been trying to rotate the bannetons in the fridge overnight, but it still seems to be having the same shoe shape effect... 
But not sure if this might have an effect on the 'banneton lines expansions) issue..?

I have uppen the hydration since we last spoke, but the issue still remains.

My fridge humidity is about 50% and temp about 8C when full (going down from 11C to about 6C)

I am using a  50%rice flour and 50% white wheat mix to dust my bannetons. Is there something else you would suggest using?

The breads (1165g) now have 4h30min prove (from salted to fridged) and then about 45 min in the morning before the bake, which i think is quite long already, no?

 

I will try different scoring.. my dough was over this morning so didnt want to try then. breads were quite flat (fridge was not turned down enough) . Grr..

 

Anyway, let me know what you think.

Thanks, 

xx alex!