All Day Country Blonde, with apologies to Ken Forkish . . .
I simply have not been able to make overnight work! The last time I tried, I finished the final bulk stretch at 5:30 pm and refrigerated it until 11:30 to slow things down. Here is what I had at 7:30 the next morning:
From 1 liter to more than four in about 8 hours. The loaves tasted fine, but were impossible to score, being so over proofed. To quote Mr. Forkish, " When the dough is nearly tripled it's original volume or possibly a bit less in winter, 12 to 15 hours after mixing it's time to divide." Time to change things up!
For this bake I mixed the levain in the evening and mixed the loaf in the morning. At 10:30 I began the bulk ferment, S&F's at 45 and 90 minutes and by noon I thought I would let things sit on the counter and see what happens. After a little more than 4 hours the dough had pretty much tripled:
So based on the volume recommendation it was time to divide and shape. My kitchen was between 70 and 72F for the entire process and I am of the opinion the radical shortening of proofing times is more than just temperature, as Ken's home kitchen for testing was 70F.
I believe there are other factors at play. Ken is in Portland, OR, more or less at sea level. I am 4,424 feet above sea level. While Portland will have coastal high humidity, my humidity is 51% right now. I recall that when I first started baking 'French' style breads at 67 percent hydration, I could not get all the flour incorporated and had to up hydration by nearly 5 percent initially. Now water boils at a lower temperature the higher you go and mine boils around 204F. Perhaps the altitude affects the way dough rises? I am speculating, but unless my levain is WAY stronger and faster than Ken's how do I reconcile 4 hours bulk vs 12 to 15??? I doubt that my levain is stronger and faster, but the dough sure does perform differently!
"Proofing time should be about four hours assuming a room temperature of 70F . . ." Using the finger dent test I was fully proofed and ready to score and bake in 1:10. I have been proofing seam side up in brotforms and scoring prior to baking. This was the first time I have been able to successfully score with a lame. While I didn't get the ear, I did get good bloom and great oven spring. A couple of satisfying country blondes!!!
I baked a half of a recipe with the final loaves into the proofing forms at 430 grams each. After 1:10 proofing, baked for 13 minutes with steam and another 14 without and voila! Properly proofed and baked loaves:
Conclusions? Watch and listen to what the dough does. Apparently while temperature affects proofing times, I believe altitude and humidity, or perhaps lack of it may also have an effect.
I have had over proofing issues as well with David Snyder's excellent San Joachin Sour Dough, being unable to score. I am not sure how I will resolve this one yet.
Satisfying loaves to produce and eat!!!
Happy baking! Ski
Comments
for some of his other breads - seam side up with no slashing required or you could refrigerate it for 30 minutes at the end before slashing which would help some too.
I haven't had a problem with scoring San Joaquin since it only sits out an hour before shaping and then into the oven it goes about 30 - 45 minutes later - after 21 hours of retard the dough is still pretty cool and fairly easy to score.
Best to not pay much attention to Ken's times or or levain builds though. You bread looks good enough to eat with anything - especially Moose Ribs :-)
Well done and happy baking Ski
I spend about half the year at the coast and half in the mountains at 4000', I can feel the drier flour at 4000' but it's a small difference. I haven't seen the dramatic rise that you are getting, and the difference in rise between sea level and 4000' is barely noticeable to me. I think you've developed an extremely potent starter. Most of us would love to have a problem like this!
Those look great!
Yeah, I found that the overnight bulk rise on the counter was too much. I am at sea level. I think I ended up putting the dough in the fridge overnight. From final mix to fridge was four hours and I left it on the counter for four hours after I took it out of the fridge in the morning. Sounds like it still took longer than yours, but I definitely couldn't leave it out all night at room temperature.
Nice!
As a side point I think you need more dough for those bannetons. Will give it more support.
Bon Appetite.
High altitude = lower air pressure so things rise faster.
You might like to check THIS out and make adjustments as necessary based upon your results in your kitchen.
I agree with Abe. Way too little dough in the size baskets you were using. I would have put that much dough all in one basket.
Always something to tweak. :*)
Janet
A very valuable link indeed. I certainly have had to add more water due to elevation. Bingo! It says to decrease yeast in breads by 25% and rise times ARE shorter. Thanks, this explains a lot.
I agree that these newer forms need more dough. I was afraid the whole batch would overflow and will make that tweak on my next bake tomorrow.
Happy baking folks! Ski
Perhaps I unwittingly have built a vigorous starter. I am still shaking my head that the bulk completed in 4 hours and how far off this is from the book's rec!
Happy baking folks! Ski
Your breads look good.
Your accelerated dough expansion is similar to what I have found, except more so. The KAF table for which Janet provided the link is neat, but it doesn't specifically deal with SD. Reducing the inoculation seems reasonable, but, because each starter is unique, you need to determine quantities by trial and error. In any case, as you already know, watch the dough, not the clock. And, if you attempt a more or less controlled experiment, please share what you do and your results.
I wonder if Debra Wink has information on yeast and LAB replication and fermentation at different altitudes.
David
David,
Thanks for pointing out the difference between leavening agents. In using that link my main intent was to show that rising times in baked goods changes with altitude due to low air pressure. A causal indicator as to why he may be getting the results he is getting.
Ski,
I live in Denver - the Mile High City. I bake with freshly milled whole grains. 99% of my loaves use WY as the primary leavening agent. 99% of my loaves bulk proof overnight in the refrigerator after a short time at room temperature. Because of my use of whole grains I have had to learn to 'watch the dough' as David points out - a very good indicator. You know how that works with your wonderful Pulla loaves.
What I look for in room time bulk fermenting times is the amount a dough has risen in about an hour. I shoot for about a 25% increase BUT that varies between the different types of breads I bake and the season. Enriched doughs need longer room time than do lean doughs.
By allowing my doughs to sit on the counter for an hour I can ascertain how the dough will behave later on and make adjustments for future bakes. One dough might rise too much so I will skip the room time evening bulk time altogether. Another dough may not have risen at all necessitating further room temp. times and adjustments to the formula when baked again.
In the morning they are allowed to warm up at room temp. or in my proofing box for 2-3 hours to finish their bulk fermenting. They are then shaped and proofed for a further 2 hours prior to baking.
By the mere fact that I bake with the grains that I do I have had to learn that most of what is written in bread books in regards to fermenting and proofing times will not apply to me. I have learned to use books as guides as opposed to rules stamped in stone. AKA - a lot of experimenting :*)
One of the best resources for me came from txfarmer and her work with whole wheat. Her general rule of thumb with using whole grains was that of decreasing the amount of pre-fermented flour used to about 15%. I have found that %age to be spot on for me and it is what I use in most of my breads now with exceptions of dense rye loaves. You might like to check out her blog pieces in regards to fermenting times etc. as she bakes a large variety of breads and her instructions are very thorough with reference throughout.
My routine may appear long and complicated but it isn't. It fits in with my daily routine as a retired person who now bakes on a daily basis. My formulas have all been modified to fit into MY schedule rather than me to theirs.... :) Most of the time is passive time rather than hands on time. When necessary, I will use the refrigerator to slow down proofing times too. All works in accordance with my daily rhythms around the home and community.
Good Luck and I hope I haven't added to your quandary.
Janet
I have to cut the pre-fermented flour down to 10% in the summer for some recipes. The heat is a real steroid here and the fridge is its antidote fir just abut every recipe - the whole grain ones are worse of course!
i wish you would post your experiences on whole grain yeast water breads. So few are using YW and for those of us that use it on rare occasions we could really draw on your first hand knowledge.
Happy baking Janet
DB,
The only way in which I use YW in my loaves is via my leaven feeds to keep them sweeter which offsets the more sour tones my whole grains create when fermented overnight.....
My leavens use only 12% YW so the overall impact is one of flavor rather than on rising times.
Janet
Some well thought out and intelligent comments. Many thanks! I enjoy this bread and have backed the hydration down to 75% as I was having a lot of difficulty at 80%. I am able to better do the batard shape I used at this hydration.
Given this new information I will bake this once again using the same timing but reducing the levain amount by 10% to see how this affects things. It is nice to have things come up so quickly, but much of what I have read extols the virtues of time to build flavour and complexity. It should be an interesting experiment.
Happy baking, Ski
You might try slashing less deeply. What I see is a loaf that was cut perhaps 1/2" deep, which was enough to allow it to expand and just stretch the cut surface so that it increased the circumference of the loaf as it baked.
What you want to do is to make a shallow, weak line which will fracture during oven spring to expose the interior of the loaf. If you provide enough additional surface area with a deep slash, the oven spring does not develop enough tension to rip the loaf open and instead just stretches the skin tight (witness your result). Shoot for 1/4" deep slash at an angle that will hide it from the initial radiant heat of the oven. Also, a loaf that is too small (not the case here) will not expand enough to rip open the slash even if it is shallow. Also, a loaf that is too highly hydrated is much more elastic and will stretch without ripping. So a stiff dough (cold can substitute for stiff), of at least 2" in diameter (preferably >2.5"), slashed 1/4" deep at an angle of 45° - 60° from normal to the surface (more of a flap than a gash), in a HOT oven with plenty of steam (which I believe is the mechanism to rapidly couple heat from the oven and quickly cook the surface starch which sets up the loaf for a rip at the slash which is hidden from the steam if done right).
I did indeed score 1/2" deep. I thought it was what you were supposed to do. Your comments are both informative and helpful. I have another batch going today and I will try your shallower score to try and gain the elusive ear.
Thanks for explaining the variables of achieving the grigne!!!
Of note to this thread, I have another batch going decreasing the levain amount by 10%. So far the bulk after second fold went all the way to 6 hours, from 4. Time to shape and proof.
Happy baking! Ski