Best steam deck oven to make 100-300 loaves a day?
(That's a pic of my Fig Anise boule.)
I am sure this has been covered many times but i can't seem to find search terms to bring it up.
I am trying to figure out best options and value for buying a used steaming deck oven for an artisanal bread operation that could crank out 100-300 loaves a day. I would be baking 750 to 1000 gram boules and batards, and standard baguettes.
It doesn't have to be pretty. i would be installing it in simple baking operation to service commercial accounts with restaurants and cafes . . . no retail for now.
I want to try to bootstrap a bare-bones operation with only refrigeration, an oven, work surfaces and racks for proofing in baskets at room temps.
My commercial baking experience is limited. I am a long time home baker with a recent stint at a startup cafe making just 15-20 loaves per day. (yes there was a lot of standing around waiting for turn and proofing)
Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.
FYI I mix everything by hand in large bowls or cambros, and have been cold retarding the formed loaves for 6-12 hours (except the baguettes). I don't think I could afford refrigeration for 200 plus formed loaves so I want to try to proof at room temp and bake. I'm not going for a real sour taste at all.
It's pretty much all Tartine style bread. Even the baguettes are straight from Robertson's book with part starter/part yeast.
You're going to mix up to 300 loaves by hand every day?
Good luck.
No. But I can mix up to 100 loaves a day to get started. Ill probably start with something less than that. When the demand goes up, I'll budget a mixer. I'm trying to shoestring this thing. The oven, however, needs to be able to achieve a number of loaves daily so that a profit point can be eventually reached.
Mostly looking for suggestions on used steam oven options. Something that will get results as good as my cast iron.
Thanks in advance.
Not to derail your thoughts, but let me add an idea:
Find a smaller oven and add to it with another oven later. That would allow you to have two bake cycles going. For example, maybe pastries that need a lower temp?
Just my two pesos.
To find them, and not knowing exactly where you are, I would start haunting Craigslist, local restaurant supply houses (they often have demo models and/or used models) and maybe join the local Rotary club. I have a few friends that have their own business and they always get (and give) a good deal through Rotary contacts.
So many places go out of business, something is bound to turn up.
Great suggestion. I'm in Las Vegas. If I went with a single deck to start I could probably find one pretty quickly for not too much money. There are a couple of restaurant equipment stores here with lots of miscellaneous used equipment.
At the cafe/bakery I was doing this in a convection oven with an array of roasting lids, cast iron dutch ovens, baking stones and a whole sheet tray full of wet lava rocks for steam. What worked pretty good at the end was to heat up three thick stones and the lava tray to 500, dump the load in and shut off the oven ( the only way to shut off the blasted fan)
Amazingly, it held to 400 almost twenty minutes later, long enough for oven spring. But what a pain on the neck.
My thoughts exactly, shoestring all the way, but the oven has to be good and big enough to accommodate my optimum ideal output rather than buy a bigger one 6 months from now. Totally
Yes you can. I just did over 70 loaves by hand two days ago. So good for you. I understand.
I am also looking for an oven. I baked all 70 loaves in my double oven putting them in dutch ovens. It wasn't easy, took a long time, but I did it.
I hope you know what you're doing.
Thanks for the concern. I have a pretty good idea having done as much as 20-30 loaves in a day by hand for a several months. I know I was standing around a lot between S&Fs where I could have been starting a new batches or forming earlier batches. I won't take on more than I can handle.
Hello Mr. Hoffman: while I don't have the answer to your question, I want to say that your bread picture is gorgeous. I have a suggestion: how about renting a space at a Pizza restaurant? Many of the Pizza restaurants only do it during the evening hours. You can rent the space during their non working hours and use their large mixers and also the oven.
My local pizza restaurant allowed me to use their large mixer to mix the dough and I bring it home to shape and bake at home. I only make a lot smaller amount than you.
Good luck to your business.
Thaichef.
Thanks for the compliment, and good idea. Does a pizza oven seal up? How would I steam it?
Hello Mr. Hoffman:
I have not use the pizza oven but from my quick look from afar, it looks just like the deck oven! It is very large and perhaps you can use the home method. Went to a friend baker a week ago and she used her large wood fire oven which she built to bake her breads.( she is a builder by trade and bread baking commercially is her preferred hobby). She can bake ten loaf at a time and it is done within 15 min. Have you every think of a wood fire oven? It costs a lot less even though it does take a lot of planning. This lady got free wood from her other job as a builder so no cost for wood. It is amazing to see it works so fantastic.
Thai chef.
My idea is rent 300-500 square feet. Commercial space is dirt cheap in Vegas if you don't care where it is (I don't) I want to set up a simple baking operation that could grow to meet demand (if there is any, lol!). I have a little bit of interest in my bread from two built-in commercial accounts who will buy all of what I can initially produce.
300 to 500 square feet containing a oven, creates steam and you want to proof bread at ambient air temperature? I think everything is going to happen very fast in that bakery.
Gerhard
I've been batch fermenting dough in a 90° proofer with a dough temperature of between 79 and 82° For 3.5 hours before dividing. I expect I will have some major adjustments. I'm hoping a few test batches will help me get it ironed out.
Are there certain brands or models to look for or to stay away from?
I recently bought an Australian made 2 deck 6 tray (3trays per deck) oven with ceramic decks and live steam fitted to both decks. I anticipate loading about between 14 - 20 loaves per deck depending on size. Averaging 32 loaves per 35min bake... should be good :) Havent hooked it up yet, waiting for my water temp unit etc, but I'll be sharing how it goes once its up and running
Oh, btw, the oven's a "John Willet" Compact 318 (3 phase).
Sounds perfect. Anxiously awaiting your report!
I sent them an email inquiring about USA distributors.
The best deck oven I have found is the Pavailler R4, it has steam, fits four full sheets and can have additional decks added onto later. It can also be converted to single phase if necessary. These are very hard to find used and they take about 4 months to be assembled and ship from France. I have one for sale due to unexpected changes in my life... It will be in San Francisco in the next few weeks. its not cheap but if you are interested let me know. Its posted on the for sale section of the site as well. I have worked with all kinds of none deck ovens trying to create steam, I think if you are serious about starting a baking operation, the oven is the one thing that you should invest in. I am hand mixing up to 100 loaves a day (800g each) and it works fine, so thats just a matter of strength and endurance until you can invest in a mixer, but improvising an oven is a lot less satisfying.
That's a very nice oven, but probably a little out of my reach. Tempting, though.
I bought mine second hand and had t refurbished. They have quite a few sizes, ceramic deck and steam are optional extras, and I know they ship :)
I had trouble finding small deck ovens, most are so big, I just dont have that kind of space. I didnt want a convection oven I want to make hearth and rustic breads "old school" style, as close to wood fired with out the wood, and with steam. Theyre built well, the only thing at a comparative price was chinese, I ummmed and aaahhed but no, too risky as all the reports say there is zero service, once you but it youre on your own.
It's all Good.
I was exactly at the same place... only 1 years ago, making 30 loaf a day from my kitchen all by hand.
I now have a tiny micro commercial bakery( 225 Square feet) and I pop over 100 bread a day with potential to double this. Keep in mind that your production capacity is multi layered. It is not the oven alone that will allow you to make 100 to 300 loaf a day but rather a cumulative pieces of equipment. By the way, if you go high hydration you can make 300 loaf a day by hand no problem, you need to split your batch in 6 to 8kilogram each and the stretch and fold is perfect. A mixer will simply buy you time. You will be able to develop your gluten in 6 to 10 minutes instead of 3 hours by hand. If time is not an issue... You are all good.
The bigger your working table is the better
Refrigeration is not a must but will help you schedule your life and timing of baking. If you however work in a small space like I do, and want to make over 100 loaf a day. Refrigeration is a MUST
Finding nearby supplier is also a must if you have a small place as you will not have place to store your base commodity
As for the Pizza oven, you need to buy some stone that they sell in KILN store for art and craft and lay them down on the steel base of the Pizza oven. This will work like a charm. As for the steam, simply put in the oven a cast iron pan with water.
You will get professional looking bread.
Understand that this is a Mc Guyver way to start but it will work.
As for professional oven, Pavallier is indeed a good oven, Matador is also a good oven. ABS is good. I personally own a 2 deck 3 pan Doyon that works for me.
If you want to brain storm a little more. Don't hesitate to contact me directly via Private Message
Happy Baking
I love this site! Thank you all so much.
Most of my doughs are on the wetter side and I intend to make about 100 loaves a day, I thought about mixing by hand but I dont think my shoulders would go the distance, so Ive borrowed a Hobart mixer from 1959!! I have a room 4.3m by 3.4m-- oven, work table, mixer, fridge (my retarder), big sink, and some storage.
My plan is to batch mix in the afternoon, bulk proof @ room temp with folds, shape in the evening and retard for final proof at about 7 to10C. Oven on at 2am and be done baking by 6am.
Sounds like you have a plan!
My process has been to make a levean of about 200 g per 2k batch of dough. This I call one batch and I double, triple, quadruple, etc. based on need.
The levean is usually ready in about six hours or whenever it passes a drop test.
I then mix the levean with the 80°F water and hand mix with the flour to autolyse at least 30 minutes.
After adding the salt with 50g water per 'batch' I begin stretch and folds every 30mimutes for about 3 1/2 hour maintaining a dough temperature of about 80°F
Next I divide, preform, benchrest, form, then straight to the refrigerator for at least six hours. I bake straight from the fridge. This was the process for the loaf pictured at the top of this thread. It was baked in a cast iron Dutch oven.
Hey! I was curious what you ended up going with? I'm in the exact same position as you described in this thread.
I use a thick liquid leaven basically 50/50 flour to water by volume (half whole rye, half white spelt) all organic flour. Then measured 305g leaven, 745g flour, 455g water and 13g salt. Thats one of my base mixes which I use for a lot of different things with or without 8g malt syrup and a bunch of other things added. I autolyse about 20- 40 mins (depending on the time I have) and aim at between 24-26C DDT, usually 2 or 3 folds in the first 2 hrs and shape after 4 or 5hrs- its winter here...
How long is your bread in the fridge? Most domestic fridges are around 4C, just curious about your time/temp ratio?
Bread looks great btw :)
Very nice. The refrigerator is about 4C. It doesn't seem to matter much whether I retard for six or as much as 12 hours. It might develop a tiny bit more sour flavor after 6 hours, but it seems to go into a sort of suspended animation after about three and half or four hours in terms of proofIng.
I bake straight from the refrigerator. The cold loafs are easier to score and seem to hold their gas a little better after scoring. They go straight from cold and rigid into their oven spring in the 500 F oven.
Hmm ok, I'll keep that in mind, I was looking at big fridges with 0 to 10C, should be ok
Has anyone had success with a pizza deck oven, manually steaming it with a hand sprayer? There sure are a lot of used pizza ovens on the market.
Christopher.
DO you have any follow up to this thread? How are things going for you?