The Fresh Loaf

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Ankarsrum kneading time

pmiker's picture
pmiker

Ankarsrum kneading time

Forgive me if this has been covered before.  I did some searches but did not find an answer.

I have 3 lbs of dough, 50% fresh whole wheat, 70% hydration with a bit of melted butter.  Once mixed how long and at what speed would you knead the dough in the current model Ankarsrum Model N30 Original?

I follow the directions in the books and videos by Ankarsrum and Ankarsrum Original USA.  My speed dial is at 2 o'clock and the time for about 4-5 minutes after mixing. So far most of my breads have been great.  But I have been told that I am overmixing my dough.  Since several longtime members of this site have Ankarsrums, I thought I would ask here.

In the finished breads I make I get the rise and crumb I expect.  The bread taste good.  What would overmixed dough look like?  Mine is very stretchy and windowpanes.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Pmiker,  my understanding is that if you overknead dough, the moisture will come back out of it .  I doubt that would happen in 4 to 5 minutes.  I have the older version DLX, and make a whole wheat ciabatta, and knead ( with the roller ) at the highest speed for about 15 minutes, and haven't had a problem.  In fact,  I have read that some owners believe that the Ankarsrum is a more gentle kneading action than other machines, and so it can take a little longer to get a window pane.  

Some, like Hamelman,  advocate that long before the dough collapses from over kneading, it get too much oxidation if you knead it to a window pane, and that will impact the flavor negatively.  So Hamelman suggests you take it out of the machine well before that point, and go to stretch and folds.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnxiawZoL4A&list=PL02A67F155E9A6668&index=2    I only use whole wheat, and don't know if that presents a problem, so I usually, though not always, go for window pane.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

does seem gentler and more time consuming than a standard type mixer (i.e KA).  At least to me.  In addition to being told that I am over mixing I was also told that doing stretch and folds during the first rise (fermentation) was unnecessary.  No matter what I read and try, there are folks who are adamantly opposed to it.  So I try different things and see what works.

This is why I'm asking folks who own and use Ankarsrum Original mixers (and the other names the mixer goes by) How do you use it to make bread?  What speed to mix, what speed to knead and about how long for each process. No theories, nothing hidden or sneaky.  Just real world observations.  I do not have a great deal of knowledge about this mixer and I'd like to learn from those who do.  I find I get good results, usually, but my mixing does not look like the videos.

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

I've had my Assistent (N28) (hereafter, DLX) for four and a half years, now, and have used it for kneading bread at least once a week.  In my view, there's a lot to be desired in all the vids I've seen. Let me describe my findings.

Two things are important, spacing of the roller from the bowl's rim and the speed.  Spacing is primarily dependent on the amount of flour.  For one or two loaves, space at one inch (2.54cm) or slightly more depending on hydration; but that's the ballpark figure.  Speed is a more variable target, but a good starting point is medium low, the knob turned to 2:30 of the clock.  That's the third marker straight up on mine.

If the roller arm is banging or the mixer is trying to walk off the table, your speed is too high and/or the spacing is too little.  Wet doughs can run at a higher speed without problems than can a stiffer dough.

The time depends a lot on the amount of enrichment.  Doughs with milk, sugar, fat or eggs need more kneading to give the same gluten development than do lean doughs.  Example:  A Viennese style sandwich bread (65% water, 6.5% DMS, and 10% butterfat) requires ten to twelve minutes at the speed above.  A lean dough at the same hydration and speed would be ready to ferment in three minutes or so.

Initial mixing is almost always two to three minutes at dead slow with proper spacing.  The exceptions are very stiff doughs like bagels and pretzels.  I think these are best done by hand, with frissage*, in order to ensure no dry clumps.

After mixing, let the dough rest for a while to even out the wetting of the flour.

Going against the grain of many DLX vs KA comments, I find the DLX seems to knead gentler and quicker than the planetary e.g. KA dough hooks.  This is not personal experience, but is from recipe methods from others where I reach the end stage in less time than called for. YMMV.

cheers,

gary

* This is one of the few French words used in baking that I haven't found a better English word for.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I am letting some dough rise right now.  I did this batch (2 loaves) a bit differently than I normally do.  I pre-soaked the whole wheat (fresh milled) and water for 20 minutes.  Then I mixed in yeast, flour, salt and butter.  I did not let it rest but I like that idea.  I then kneaded.  My roller was about 3/4 to 1 inch out and I upped the speed gradually to about 4-5 o'clock on the dial.  I set the timer for 8 minutes.

I watched the kneading and cut the mixer off just before it would have shut down.  I did adjust the spacing to avoid walking or slamming.

My dough has 70% water and about 4% butter so it's a touch sticky.  But it appears to be really nice dough and it does window pane.  That part is a bit tricky since the dough is sticky but it does stretch without tearing.

I appreciate the feedback and I'm still googling frissage.

tjkoko's picture
tjkoko

I'm fluent in French and the term is used in making tart crusts.  Once the tart dough aka pate brisee has been completely mixed and made into a ball, it is smeared onto the countertop to help flatten and spread out the flakes of butter used in the recipe.  Frisage makes for a better, flakier tart crust.  It's also labeled as "coming down from the mountain".

In bread dough making frisage could be used for "realigning" the gluten/proteins.  See here:  frisage.

tjkoko's picture
tjkoko

Sorry for the misspelling but it's spelled FRAISAGESheesh.

Barbarat's picture
Barbarat

Hi ,since beginning of the year I am a happy owner of an Ankarsum mixer. I am mixing about 3.5kg of dough at one time and I have been using the hook since the beginning. Never even considered the roller (just jumped in without doing great research on you tube). I am mixing lean doughs, yeasted or SD, mix mostly 4 min, let rest 30 min then do S&F. One dough with lots of oats I am mixing for 8 min. I mixed one time Reinhard's Italian Bread for 11 min, according to the formula, without S&F but the crumb was kind of falling apart. Now I mix 4min and do 2x S&F about 30 min apart and the texture of the bread comes out great. I am always mixing on the lowest speed. I have not really ventured out in trying other speeds, mixing times or roller because my breads come out really well. I am baking about 20 loaves/day 4x/week for sale. Might have to try the roller one of these days :).

Barbara

nikkiblum's picture
nikkiblum

I've had my Ankarsrum mixer for more than a year now and still consider myself relatively new. I've made all sorts of breads, bagels, cookies (plastic bowl and beaters), and like Gary, I have found my mixing experience doesn't look much like the videos. My guess is that the window pane test is still the best indicator of mixing. Overmxing will make your dough too soft to hold a pane. It will feel sort of "drippy". Rye flours, in particular,  get slimy with overmixing. Consider taking the temperature of your mixed dough. It should be in the 77-80 degree range. 

I usually start mixing at a med-low speed for, say, 4 minutes or so, moving to a higher speed for a final 1-2 minutes. That seems to work for most of my doughs. 

But I use the temperature of the water to compensate for the uncontrolled temperature environment of a home kitchen. The formula I use is this: take the final dough temperature you want, ie. 77-degrees, and multiply by 3 for dough without a preferment and by 4 for dough with a starter, biga, poolish, etc.; then subtract the temperature of the room, the flour, and the preferment if using, plus a constant of 26 degrees for the friction factor of the mixer *. The number remaining should be the temperature of the water you use for the mix. Thus your water will be cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. 

* the constant is based on the revolutions per minute of the mixer. So 26 is based on the KA at low temperatures. I haven't calculated it for the Ankarsrum, but I imagine it is somewhat lower. 

nikkiblum's picture
nikkiblum

Regarding the constant: I meant low SPEED, not low temperature. Sorry,.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

I'll admit to using water temp to control dough temp.  But I did not have a formula.

Let's see if I get this.  (77*3) - 80-78 + 26 = 99

(desired temp x 3) - room temp - flour temp + 26 =

I think I have it wrong.  I'm looking for dough in the 70's I think.

 

AllanRI's picture
AllanRI

... to your question about the formula for water temperature?

I just got my new Ankarsrum this week (and sold my KitchenAid).  I'm hoping I haven't made a terrible mistake. So far, I'm not loving the kneading g action of the roller, at least for smaller batches of 65% hydration dough. Perhaps I need to pay more attention to the roller adjustment, because it is still banging around a bit. If I understand correctly, based on the comments above, the roller should not be banging at all if it us set properly. Is this correct?   If I remove the scraper while the machine is kneading, I find the dough just sticks to one side of the bowl, and gets "tickled"by the roller as it goes around.  It doesn't seem to be doing much in the way of kneading. With the scraper attached, there's more movement/kneading in the dough, but the roller bangs around more. Maybe I need to pull it out even further?

I have used the dough hook a couple of times, and I quite like the kneading action it offers. It seems to do a lot more stretching and compressing of the dough,  which looks a lot more like hand kneading. 

Anyway, I wasn't expecting this machine to present such a learning curve. I hope I figure it out!

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I've been playing with my Ank for about a month now (I bake for a small shop and market, so make a lot of bread of different kinds), and I must say I love it. But you're right - it is quite a learning curve! Very, very different from a planetary mixer like the KA. I used the dough hook mostly for the first little while because it looked like it was more effective, but I kept trying the roller and scraper and now I understand that it is doing a fine job, even though you can't really see it. One way to help understand how well it mixes is to add a bunch of seeds to the dough after you've mixed it for a few minutes. It doesn't take long for them to be evenly mixed throughout the dough. In the KA this took such a long time, and sometimes they never really got incorporated and I had to take it out and do it by hand.

Like others, I find the dough tends to be a bit sticky when I take it out of the Ank, but a couple of stretch & folds and it is beautifully soft and stretchy. I tend to let it run for somewhere between 4 and 8 minutes, depending on the dough, but I've also had good results letting it go longer for really high-hydration doughs, and using the dough hook (unlike the 'instructions' which indicate the hook should only be used for large batches and stiff dough).

I think it's normal for the roller to move from side to side a bit. That's why it is on a moveable arm.

AllanRI's picture
AllanRI

i will it on my next batch!  

jcbbb's picture
jcbbb

Just got the 6230 a few days ago.

So, I'm making two loaves today. I let the first one run about 15min on the 3rd speed setting. It still came out fairly tacky compared to kneading by hand, but I could tell the mixture was much smoother. The 2nd loaf, I'll try, using the 6th speed setting. I saw a few youtube videos where the speed setting was much more aggressive than what I set. So we'll see how they turn out.

Using the roller and scraper for both, no dough hook yet.

pmiker's picture
pmiker

My flour, water and salt are at room temperature, around 76F.  If I use yeast it is cooler but the amount is too small to worry about the temperature.  This works for me.  In the Ankarsrum I first put in the water then the flour, etc...  If the dough bangs, I adjust the roller out.

Use either the dough hook or roller/scraper, whichever you like better.  There is a learning curve!  I can routinely make good bread but it is not as fool proof as in regular mixers.  But I think it makes better dough than most others.  IMHO.

AllanRI's picture
AllanRI

I was rather curious about the whole formula thing, because I've always been a more "intuitive" bread maker. I've been baking since I was 10 (sold bread to the neighbours to make money to buy my first 10 speed), and for the last 25 years or so, I've rarely measured anything with any degree of precision or accuracy. Even the whole idea of hydration level wasn't something I fussed with; I just added water/flour as needed until the dough mixture looked/felt right. Now, I will admit my results haven't been 100% consistent, but they've never disappointed!  

I'm spending more time with weights and measures now, as I'm branching out from standard yeast or sourdough French bread. I tried a (fabulous) Danish rye for the 1st time this week, and had I relied on my intuition rather than a recipe it would have been a disaster. 

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Allan,  I get the banging roller on certain recipes, but I don' t think that means you have to adjust the roller.  The main reason to adjust the roller more to the center is that if you have a lot of dough ,  without that adjustment, the roller will squeeze the dough up the side of the bowl, and eventually some if it will come out the top.  For me, the lower the hydration, the greater the banging - for example, pizza dough.   I usually start with the roller touching the side of the bowl.  For a small loaf, it doesn't need any adjustment.  If I am making a larger loaf, I just watch it for a few minutes as the dough starts to come together, and adjust it so that the dough does not come close to being squeezed all the way up the side of the bowl.   Personally, I don't think the learning curve is all that high on this machine,  having previously used a KA and a Bosch -  the primary thing to get used to is to set the timer and walk away after a minute or two, then come back when the timer has stopped the machine.  If the dough is done, take it out, if not, either a few stretch and folds as Lazy Loafer suggests ,  or a few more minutes of mixing and come back and check again.  I think what trips people up is their prior experience with a KA gets them used to basically watching the machine and the dough the whole time.  The dough develops differently in the Ank, so it looks different during the kneading, but the results are better, IMO ,  than a  KA. 

AllanRI's picture
AllanRI

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I get that the main point of adjusting is to prevent the dough from creeping up and over the side of the bowl ...  what was happening with my small batch was that the dough ended up stuck/smeared on one side of the bowl (as opposed to being a sort of donut shape that went around the whole bowl or the roller), and as a result, the roller would just bang somewhat violently with each rotation. I adjusted the roller to reduce the banging, but I questioned whether the dough was actually being kneaded, as it was quite immobile, stuck to the wall of the bowl. Are you saying that's ok?  

Thanks, 

allan

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

I adjust the roller and speed to stop the roller's banging.   If it bangs, adjust the roller out from the bowl or (the more likely cure --- assuming proper roller setting to begin with) slow the machine's speed.  Some of the banging may come from the dough slapping the scraper.

The scraper plays an important role in the Ank's kneading.  One of its functions is to turn the dough some small bit so that it goes through the roller's scallops at a slightly different angle each time around.

It sometimes looks as if nothing is happening, but simply going through the roller squeezes the dough.  Imagine yourself using your fingers to squeeze a dough ball 45 to 100 times a minute.  Have faith, the Electrolux/Magic Mill/DLX/Assistent/Ankarsrum, by any name, just works.

gary

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I'd suggest you keep the scraper in the bowl until the dough is no longer sticking to the sides of the bowl. You can remove it then if you like, but there's no real reason to take it out.

I made a few videos (not very good ones!) when I first got the Ankarsrum. You can see them on my blog here. I've probably changed technique since then, but I tried various doughs with both the roller and the dough hook, with and without the scraper, just to learn how it all worked.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Allan,  for some sizes of dough at certain hydrations, you do get a donuts that forms - and I have seen that in several youtube videos.  For most of my bread, I get a round blob that gets squeezed as Gary says as it goes betweenthe roller and the side, the scraper then pulls it off the side, and spins it a little, and it then gets squeezed again.  If it is just sitting stuck to the sides, I assume you have taken the scraper out?   I never take the scraper out so I agree with Lazy, no need to .  

Karen's picture
Karen

Are you sure your dough isn't a little too dry? Because you shouldn't get a blob/ball/firm mass until you're approaching the end of the knead.

AndyPanda's picture
AndyPanda

I've been meaning to make a video - but until then, let me see if I can explain this so it makes sense.   When I'm kneading small amounts of dough (I frequently do 1.5 lb batches - single loaf), it's more difficult to get this action and easier to get it with larger amounts.    The action I like to get is when the dough does NOT form a ball -- I like to keep the dough in a doughnut shape with the roller just off center.   When it's working this way there is no dough on the sides of the bowl, there is a doughnut shape of dough - roller inside the doughnut hole - that might just barely brush the scraper but isn't slamming into it.  And I adjust the roller just enough off center that it stretches the doughnut a little - but not so much that it causes the doughnut to form into a ball (once it's a ball then it starts slamming into the scraper).   

Hope that made sense - when I can keep the dough working like that, I get a much softer knead.  Sometimes (when it forms a ball) I have to stop the mixer and move the doughball to the center of the bowl and release the roller so I can cram it down into the center of the dough to make a doughnut shape again.  :)   

AndyPanda's picture
AndyPanda

I made a small batch (single loaf) in the Ankarsrum today (mine is an old AEG) and uploaded a short video showing the method I use for very gently stretch.    I fool around with lots of different musical instruments too - so I wrote a little tune for the soundtrack - haha - I figured it had to be a little better than the sound of the motor :)

Ankarsrum - gentle knead method for small batch










AllanRI's picture
AllanRI

I see what you mean ... your dough looks like it's much more hydrated than mine typically is.  I've played a little bit with higher hydration doughs, and I've had so much trouble getting them to just come out of the banneton without becoming completely destroyed that I've gone back to a lower-hydration recipe.  

Actually, I was watching an old episode of "The French Chef", where Mme. Child bakes bread with Prof. Raymond Calvel. The recipe they used was a more traditional, lower-hydration French bread one.  And unlike many of the recipes/techniques I've seen on this site and elsewhere, they actually are quite rough with the dough after it's final rise in the bowl. Indeed, she claims that treating the dough roughly encourages the yeast to become more active.  I've tried this recently while shaping loaves, and I have to say, it's worked very well.  Good oven spring, excellent open texture, etc.  

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

Why do you have the roller so close to the center?  For that amount of dough, the roller should probably be no more than ¾" (19mm) from the rim.   You're losing the massaging effect of the roller.

As for gentle, the Ankarsrum is implicitly gentle by design.

gary

AndyPanda's picture
AndyPanda

That is the whole point of the video.  I used to do it the way you described and over time I found I prefer it this way.  This was in response to people complaining that their dough ball was slamming into the scraper and I was showing an alternate method of kneading where you don't get any of that slapping.    It is massaging the dough plenty, but differently and I prefer the texture I get this way. 

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

You probably aren't overmixing your dough, but you might be mixing it beyond your goals. Windowpaning isn't an appropriate goal for many types of artisinal bread if you want an open crumb.

I only use the Ankarsrum when I want a full-developed dough...maximum rise and a fine crumb. If I'm looking for an open crumb, I use mainly stretch & fold techniques.

As for how long to mix....I mix until the dough is ready. For speed, doesn't really matter, but it does affect how long it takes to get the desired level of dough development. I usually use a middle speed.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

As I get more used to my Ankarsrum, I find I'm ignoring advice that says how I'm 'supposed' to use it. I sometimes use the hook and scraper for big or small batches or wet or firm dough, and sometimes the roller. Depends how it looks and how I want it to look.

There is no 'right' or 'wrong'. Use it how you want, as long as you're not going to break it (and I suspect that would be quite difficult to do). :)