June 17, 2015 - 6:43pm
Pineapple starter up and running, next step?
In day 5 of a starter is bubbly measuring about a pint.
I understand that feeding is 50/50 water/flour but I do not read how much and how often. Is it always purified water?
Is there any rule of thumb for how much starter to use in a recipe?
Is it true that as it reaches two weeks then one should either bake more or toss all except 1/4c and mix 50/50 flour/water to keep it going. Again, how much.
I get the feeling that tight measurements are not all that important.
TMQ?
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TMQ, no all good questions, I'm on day five of my first starter too and tested it this morning and it's bubbly and a spoon full floats in a bowl of water and it no longer smells like feet.
So I've fed it and await an answer to how much to use in a recipe?
I've been using room temp. water from the jug because its been boiled then cooled and it's no hassle at all.
Good questions, but I will say they are the type that can get a lot of different answers. I would suggest you find someone, or a book or a site and see what they say and follow one path for awhile until you get the hang of things.
For example, "how much in a recipe" depends on how fast do you want it to rise (as one varaiable) people who start their bread in the morning and want to bake later that day might say 400g but someone who makes the dough and throws it in the fridge overnight might say 100g. You can get spun around if you try and combine too many ideas at once.
especially the amounts of ingredients.....
I am open to all thoughts and will adopt what ever I want to make something. All I need is to know how to balance all this.
This is my first starter, who l knows, I may invent something new....
Does it smell yeasty? slightly, yes, or very yeasty?
Slightly acrid, not strong.
Bubbly but no rise.
starter suddenly taking off is such a rush! Naturally "What next?" can be daunting.
With a pint of the stuff, you should reduce the size before feeding it again. In my experience I suggest taking most of it to make dough, feed a small portion into another container and hang on to this starter as is (cover and chill) until you see the other starter cultures behaving and growing. You might have to return to this one so label it "back up."
Might as well make a dough (you can always add instant yeast to it later if it fumbles)
One of my favourite test recipes for a new starter is a simple 1,2,3 sourdough.
If you think about it on starter scale, the flour is 3 x the weight of the starter, might want to try that with the next flour feeding of the starter and compare rises of starter and rising dough. use equal weights of water to keep the 100% hydration for easy calculation. Should you be feeding AP wheat flour, that may be too thin to raise starter for comparisons so thickening the starter (less water, 65% of flour weight) might work better.
Mix together a shaggy mass, holding back a little of the measured water, until the flour is moistened. Then let sit 30 minutes covered. Now knead or work the dough into a nice shape with little or no flour or with some of the water if it feels dry. When satisfied with the dough feel. Weigh it and compare to the dough ingredient weight. they should be very close. if not be sure to correct the amounts you adding in. Let dough start to bulk ferment in a clean, marked container. Pinch off a small ball of dough and pack level inside a tall narrow glass, like a shot glass, as a rise guide. Mark start level.
Let dough rise until it starts to puff up, about 1/3 of the original starting height and do your first stretch and fold to keep the dough in shape. It is very typical for sourdoughs to loose their shape as they ferment, more so than yeasted dough, so it is important to use the opportunity during the bulk rise to flip the dough over and stretch and fold the dough over onto itself, tightening the skin of the dough. Return the dough to an upright position and tuck under corners to have that nice shape. If the dough seems too lax, repeat the folding but important to stretch and not tear the skin.
There will be an initial lag time from when you first shape the dough ball and when it starts to rise. Feeding the starter culture at the same time as letting the dough rest will give you something to compare as the dough bulks. If you don't stir the fed culture and knock it down while it rises, you will get some idea of the total bulk time when the culture peaks. It isn't a direct comparison because of salt controlling the rise and slight variations in temperature but it can be interesting.
With the first sourdough loaf, i would suggest keeping the loaf on a board or table and covering with a bowl between folds if your room temp is above 24°C. You can choose to evenly space stretch and folds or when you see the dough rising more out than up, flip it and tighten it up with some stretch and folds. Flip back over and go about your business with other things nearby. You can see on the posted comments on numerous 1,2 3 sourdough recipe threads that this first learning experience can take a large block of time so be prepared. Temps and flour mixtures make for big differences.
Nowadays, when I test a starter culture for the first time, I let it rise the 1/3, give it a nice stretch and folding, cover and tuck into the fridge overnight. Then play with it the next morning popping in and out of the kitchen as it warms up and goes into a final rise. I usually only have to shape the cold stiff mass once and let it final proof. If the whole thing looks a bit slumped while it is rising, I may fold it again. The retarding gives a more supporting matrix to the crumb.
The "save" if you find that your dough has not risen at all (null, zip, nada) in the first 16 hours at 23°C temperature, taste it. This can tell you a lot. if it tastes sourish, then spread out dough and smear with a yeast paste: two or three teaspoons of instant yeast (to 500g flour) that has been softened with a tablespoon or two of water. Then treat the dough like a yeasted one, it will bulk rise in just an hour or so and quickly progress thru a final rise to bake. Then return to the "back up" culture and keep with it longer feeding it with small amounts of flour until the yeast is more prominent.
The main reason I started a starter was to improve the flavor.
I have mastered the mechanical part.
I will erase the long comment. txfarmer has done some beautiful sd croissants.
Still might be worth it to use up starter and prove it's working before jumping into fancy stuff.
Use the search engine -- search on "sourdough croissant" and you will see a nice list of articles and recipes.
I read it to see what I could glean from it.
Is there a simple use to test it?
try a 1 to 10 feeding with a favourite dough hydration. If it hasn't peaked in 12 hrs, it's not ready yet.
Is it looking at me?
How much do I feed it without ending up with a gallon of it?
looking is peek, the volume peaks, 100g flour and 70 to 100g water depending on your flour. It should more than double. When the rising dome forms a dimple in the middle, it will soon level out. What flour are you feeding?
I pictured an eye forming and looking at me (Audry3?)
I am using King Arthur APF.
It looks as if I am ready as it is day 6 for this one and will try tour suggestion today. I will place 250g into a container and you suggest 100f/100w but what difference is that than what I did thew other day on day 4? I get bubblies but certainly no rise as much as you did...
marking on the cup in the picture and not weight, later it rises to 570ml volume, stick to 1:10 starter to flour. Also note lag time of about 4 hours. Thicker mixtures rise higher but may take slightly longer to peak. This was some kind of whole flour and not AP. Whole flours will also be faster than sifted to ferment.
Eye'm watching you? Good thing no one uses pike flour.... "How many peaks must a pike starter peak if a pike peaking pike poised for a peek?" :)
"marking on the cup in the picture and not weight, later it rises to 570ml volume, stick to 1:10 starter to flour."
This makes no sense to me. Am I mixing starter with just dry flour?
" I will place 250g into a container and you suggest 100f/100w but what difference is that than what I did thew other day on day 4?"
I was trying to figure out where you come up with 250g? I was trying to make sense out of this sentence... I thought you were using the 250 number in my photo. (What did you do on day 4?)
You asked me for a simple test and I gave you one but now it sounds so complicated!
I will repeat differently and hope it makes sense. Take 10 g of starter culture and add 70g water and 100g flour, the same flour you have been feeding the starter. Put this mixture or test into a clean jar and mark the level.
Water content can vary but at 100g or 100% hydration for AP flour the mixture will be very thin and more than likely, too thin to rise. That is why I asked you about the flour you are using. Bubbles will rise up and pop on the surface before raising the culture. So please reduce the water amount to make a thicker starter closer to a bread hydration. Use 70g of water for this test. Do give your container a head space 4 to 5 times the starter volume for this test. Just to avoid messy clean ups. Cover to prevent drying and place out of drafts or direct sunlight.
and they tell me there is medication for that....
Ok, 10g starter, 70g water, 100g flour.|
This ended up being so thick it all stuck toe the spoon so I added 10g more water. This seemed to settle down to an uneven blob.
When I referred to being bubbly, that was a comment about the starter, not the suggested mix. I now see that 250 was the starting weight.
I may have just had a "Well Duh" moment. The dough will rise because of the lack of water which otherwise would let the air out as it bubbles. Hence, therefore ergo, the starter doesn't rise.
I plan to see that this blob will rise now that the flour feeds the starter and (what my neighbor says) "The yeast farts will be trapped in the muck".
My neighbor still says "Oh just put yeast in it and be done..."
I really hope to prove him wrong....
Is there something about the left/right side that I am not getting or is it lighting? Still, there seems to be two different set of readings marked.
Is it a split picture?
The light area is a strip of masking tape running up a plastic measuring cup.
I was having a fun time with a page of little labels and so I have the actual time on the right side and then the hours it took on the left. I filled in the label first and then stick it to the level mark on the tape. Not so straight but I'm sure you can do better. I vaguely remember something about the pen not writing on the tape and trying to find a pen that worked. Visual overkill. I usually remove the tape and labels later to a notebook when I wash the container.
Thankyou Mini oven.
of a growing whole wheat starter to memories of my brother's stinky sweaty feet. (he played sports)
I was growing a starter in my sister's kitchen and my bil thought surely a dirty sock was hiding out behind the refrigerator.
Don't ask me how it got there! :)
I asked him in turn if he had any mouse traps. (big sturdy ones)
I assured him it's a sign of mice, they drag dirty socks behind the fridge any chance they get. :) Gosh that was hard to keep a straight face!
Similar to your pattern, it looks as if it will double in size again in less that amount of time.
No real odor though but one would know it is yeast in there.
Now I have to re-read that long post again to see how to knead it into bread. Curious, what happens if I do not knead it? I will try it anyway just to see it since I seem to have an abundance of starter....
the "save" last paragraph. Congratulations! You have a wild yeast sourdough starter!
I'm am from nature a no knead bread baker unless you've gotten under my skin. (Then I will knead the crap out of it.) Aromas will get stronger as fermenting builds by-products. Whether you knead or not, do fold the dough or you will get very flat bread. In comparing dough feel for one recipe, two loaves, one with sourdough the other not, I will make the sourdough slightly stiffer than the yeasted loaf because of the sourdough loaf's ability to soften and loosen up more than the yeasted one. Mentioning it so you notice the difference right away.
Any time during the rising, take a sharp knife or bench scraper and cut open the dough so you can look at the gas forming chambers inside the dough. Then slap the two halves back together and shift one half toward the top to become the new top dough surface.
The fermenting process tends to be much slower than yeasted and often with the first loaf, one rushes the dough. Cutting and looking at the gas trapping will help you judge if the dough has fermented long enough. You are looking for some very nice bubble structure everywhere, even between the larger bubbles. Dense fresh doughy parts should be disappearing. No larger rebel bubbles? then it needs more fermenting. You have to make a careful decision between when there is enough trapped gas in the structure and before it looses it's ability to hold itself together. Oh, and don't forget everything is happening exponentially, speeding up as time goes by.
Some sourdough recipes call for folding every 45min to an hour. Fine. I find however, if I follow the way the dough feels (all things considered equal) I have an initial lag time, fold the dough, can go more than 45 minutes before the second one (considering that all temps are still the same) and the following intervals between folds will shorten. When I'm down to half an hour between folds, I'm getting dangerously close to crossing into overproof territory. So when that last fold was a little more than 30 minutes from the previous one, I turn on the oven and make this the last folding getting into shaping for the banneton. My dough then spends a very short time in the basket.
I tell you all of this so you have some idea what to compare to. There are all kinds of variation including slowing down the fermentation and long hours in the banneton. Temperature is a major factor in your flavour profile so make this first loaf at room temp for a starting point and later compare to cool rises and warmer rises.
Have fun! :) - Mini
"Whether you knead or not, do fold the dough or you will get very flat bread."
There may be minor differences in the list of ingredients but I was wondering about this. It makes sense too.
BTW: Is flat bread all that bad? I will have to test that one.
I figure it is too soon for the starter to have a lot of flavor, but NONE?
The first two loaves were no better than the Strofoam I get in a discount grocery store. As I shorten the bake time and temperature, I improved the color, and crumb but all it turned out to be is a medium to support butter or jam.
A good bread should not need support.
):
Haha similar experience here this morning, oh well try again!
My mother is in it's forever home and is rising and reducing between feeds nicely but I think I'll give it a week before harvesting from her again and hopefully develop a better flavour.
.
About 15 years ago, my Mother was in a rehab home from her surgery and then you said that you said "My mother is in it's forever home and is rising and reducing between feeds" all I could think of her in that medical center and none of your message was making sense.....
My Mother died 10 years ago but my mother is scarcely a few days old....
(:
How much and how often do you feed it?
I've fed it once a day since it started smelling yeasty and appearing to be fermenting.
At it's peak, the upper most mark, I took out 200 grams to use, discarded some and kept and fed the remaining 250ml, lower mark.
50 grams flour and 50 grams of water feeds, it seems to have got it's rhythm. Rising to peak overnight ready for discards and a feed.
And it's home, a good sized container that fits in the fridge door and allows it to breath.
Steve Mc.
Although I'm not yet keeping it in the fridge, but it will fit when it needs to, It still needs to develop a bit more yeast and flavour.
Mine reminds me of 1980 Saturday night at 12 West New York, lights flashing, music loud, sweaty bodies packed on the dance floor and the smell of Poppers filling the air. (Ahh such memories...)
Is that close to what it should be?
These odors are consistent with a young, not yet balanced and mature culture. Since your starter is still a teenager, that's to be expected. But it shouldn't stay that way. I've read that it takes at least two weeks of regular refreshments creating good conditions for the good guys to out compete the less desirable strains.
You might find this article interesting.
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=startersmell
50/50 daily.... Tap water or should I use the Purified water that was recommended to get it started?
I like the door container idea. It will prevent me from having to search for it. In the main shelf, it will get shifted to the back and become a science project on its own.
To what volume of starter are you adding the 50/50 feed? Each feed should refresh the culture, not just add food, i.e. should return the batch to the optimal pH and acid range for growing the yeasts and bacteria you are after. Ideally you are at least tripling with each feed (50/50/50) or better (25/50/50) and then feeding again once it has peaked and is ready for more. Consistantly adding small amounts of food to a large amount of starter will create conditions that not only inhibit the growth of the beasties you are after but can result in their totally dropping out of the culture (over time).
I am feeding after removing about 250 grams and with 250 ml remaining in the container, about 280 grams by weight.
I'll take your advice, If I feed it more to match whats remaining there will be a lot of starter, so I shall remove more leaving only 50 grams to feed with 100 grams flour and 100 grams water and see how it goes.
Like Mini Oven says "Here again are different starter maintenance for different folks." but it needs to be based on sound practices to be any good so, Thanks.
The 50/50 reference was flour/water.
I had not figured the starter/food ratio.
Right now it is 8oz by volume. I think I will do the same. Reduce to 50 grams to feed with 100 grams flour and 100 grams water and see how it goes.
How old is it?
What's its name?
Mine is 6 days old and her name is Audrey3.
six inches, oops wrong
7 days old no name yet.
we have chlorine in our tap water so I'm at least using pre boiled water from the jug.
unsweetened juice when starting up your starters? ...and don't tell me it doesn't matter.
If sweetened, see if you can find out what sweetener was added.
No flavour? Good! (but answer the above Q first before we discuss your choice for a non-sour starter and precision of your taste buds.)
Look at it this way...Now you have a neutral starting point to play with. When you elaborate the starter for the bake, that's when all the experimenting begins. Keep feeding your mother starter with consistency perhaps a bit more than starter growing feeds, and use bits of it to play around with various fermenting methods, flours, liquids.
Here again are different starter maintenance for different folks. Some use the discard for bread, some maintain a "mother" in the fridge and remove small portions of it to build for bread. Some mix in all the starter and pinch off some dough for the next loaf. Different strokes for different folks.
Fresh pineapple juice Mini oven.
previous negative sourdough experience, you expected more flavour and secretly wanted to drop kick this loaf. I actually think you were more pleasantly surprised at first. no?
Variance in rise times can be often nailed down to the pH and level of bacteria to yeast in the starter, same with flavour. There is a symbiotic relationship of bacteria to yeast. Can't ignore it.
I am not sure how it failed the first time but it did not work.
I will use the pineapple starter this time.
Wondering though: Does it have to be purified water? What about distilled water? Boiled water? I have good tap water, can that work?
I see the suggestion to reserve 50g and feed 100g flour and 100g water but how long between reducing and feeding?
I also saw somewhere here that 8oz starter is roughly equal to 1 pkt of yeast, Balancing the other percentages of water and flour, is this a food rule of thumb?
How much time between feedings?
Apparently there is no recipe once the starter is started and no one seems to be concerned if the water is purified or straight out of the tap.
For me, I am still using purified water and I feed it once maybe twice a week using about a Tbsp of flour if the goop is watery and 1 Tbsp of water if it is too thick. It is all a guessing game....
I figure you should keep it thin enough that it doesn't rise or you will be storing it by the gallon.....
If you're feeding one or twice a week, you're refrigerating, right? Else, you need to feed at least daily.
If your tap water tastes ok, use it. If it smells of chlorine, leave it out on the counter overnight before using it.
To feed, remove from the fridge, and weigh into a clean container 50g of the mother/chef/seed. Into that, weigh 50g of water and 50g of flour. Stir well and let sit at room temperature for an hour or so to start the little beasties on dinner. Move back to the fridge.
You can use the leftover seed to, um, seed your starter pre-ferment for the current dough or make pancakes, etc. Or, you can just throw it out.
I never throw any out. I use what I have until the amount on hand is ~50g before feeding as above. That additional 100g is good for three weeks' baking for me. (@30g chef per 1350g of dough per week).
And, always weigh; no spoons, no cups.
There's no guessing, only consistency.
cheers,
gary
if you turn it into one by not using a scale.
As I understand it, the hydration of your starter can affect its fermentation rate, so if you don't keep it at the same % by weighing how much water and flour you add, the optimal time between feedings seems likely to change every time you feed it even if all other conditions are constant.
"As I understand it, the hydration of your starter can affect its fermentation rate."
Yet, you do not explain any reason being concerned about this.
Cooking for me is not an art of Mass Production. With all the different proportions I have been using and still do not achieve the flavor I want, I scarcely believe that measure by weight or by volume makes a difference. I have even come up with a few new concepts in baking especially without the obsession on precision.
I do see a benefit for using a scale though. When my pie dough calls for 6 cups of flour, I end up counting the scoops into the cup measurement and forgetting how many cups I have measured. When you add flour to reach a given weight, you don't have to count anything. Other than that, I see no need for that kind of precision for my pies let alone the simple concoction of a starter.
My grandmother baked regularly, her kitchen had a 100# flour bin to accommodate her needs. Her measuring cup was a broken handle tea cup, and her baking notes reflected that cup's measure. There is no way in hell that anyone else could bake from her notes. She could. Her measurements were consistent; she had a board with a hole in it to hold her cup. She'd put that across the bin top and sift the flour into the cup and level.
But you're not consistent. From your posts, I see you constantly second guessing us and yourself. Why do you cling to cups and spoons for measuring? None of the experienced bakers here have said to use them. We all (I include myself out of a sense of self-importance) say, "use a scale." Yet you. a self-confessed beginner at bread baking, want to argue the point.
Eighteen years ago, I was paralyzed due to nerve damage (GBS). As I was learning to walk again, the PTs had me use a cane. Like the protagonist on House, M.D., I held the cane on my weak side. No, no, I was told, hold the cane on the strong side. But I knew better, of course. Finally one day in a burst of insight, I thought, if all the experts say one thing, who am I to argue. I switched my cane to the other side and soon found the cane was not there to lean on, but to improve my balance. My walking quickly improved once I listened to someone who knew what they were talking about and not my own ignorant self.
You have an inquisitive mind and that is causing you to get ahead of yourself. Simply pick someone's suggestions and follow them explicitly without second guessing. Peter Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice" is an excellent source of info for the beginner. There are others, but BBA is an exemplar. Pick a simple, lean white bread and make it. Again and again, without modification, until you get it right. Oh, and use a scale.
since I've never baked more than two loaves at once or even in a single day.
What I was getting at is this. Depending how much the bulk and proof times change due to the change in starter hydration, the level of sourness may perceptibly differ too.
makes my point. I doubt I could have said it any better.....
but yes it does make sense.
You are being treated here by the "Lab Coat" cooks in the same way that the doctors treated him with the crutch.
He was given instruction without explanation and had to learn on his own what the doctors could have said in the first place. This only goes to prove that doctors have forgotten what "Doctor" means....
Personally, when it comes to breads, I rarely measure anything let along go to great lengths to calibrate to the gram. I have realized that if the dough looks good, feels good, smells good then it will make a good loaf of bread. I enjoy twerking all of my recipes.