Depth of Flavor question
I've been making sourdough bread for awhile. I think I may be at the end of the beginner's stage, as I know how to do the basics, including: how to use starter at various room temperatures, or chilled, or fresh, or not refreshed, or aged; how to use starter to build levains, and pre-ferments; how to use white flours, and whole grain flours, and grains, and combinations of same; how to retard dough at various times and temperatures, or using warmer temperatures; how to use different hydration percentages; how to build dough in stages, and so on. I preface my question this way to not come off as a novice, but, also, to not come off like I think I've tried everything. Somewhere I read something like this: "anyone can make good bread; we want to make GREAT bread." So, that's me. I can make OK to good bread. I think I could make great bread, or at least bump it up to a consistently "really good bread" level.
My question: At this stage of what I (think I ) know about how to bake sourdough bread, I think the breads I bake should have more depth of flavor, and I am not referring to sour. I have cultured three different starters. The first, I used fermented raisin water which was not what I wanted. The starter worked fine, but the bread lacked flavor. The second starter was cultured using the Debra Wink method. The first time I used it, the bread was wonderful. REALLY good. One of my best. The second time I used it, the bread had about half the flavor. I did not change any ingredients or technique(s) that I know of, but something happened (did not happen). Most of the loaves that followed using the second starter were OK. They tasted OK to good. Nothing great. After trying a variety of techniques, methods I read about from many sources including Hamelman, Reinhart, and Richardson, and this and other sites, nothing much seemed to change. The bread was good, but not REALLY good. So, I cultured a third starter thinking maybe my first starter contaminated the second starter. Before culturing the third starter, I sterilized all of my utensils and containers and used bottled water. I was attempting to avoid any contamination from the other two starters. The flour I used was KA AP. It took longer than I expected, but when it was ready, and I used it, the result was disappointing. I do understand about young starters, but that was about six months ago, and there still is not really any discernible change. The bread is good, but I still think it should have more depth of flavor. At this point, I will add, that on occasion, when all of the planets were in the correct alignment (so to speak), I would occasionally produce a loaf that landed somewhere between good and really good. When I would attempt to replicate all of the techniques using the same ingredients, the result was not as good. So . . . , what is it?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I learned early on that sourdough taste is a delicate agent and can be lost through careless approaches to the level of detail that sourdough requires.
Once upon a time I decided to use a lower cost high protein bread flour. All went as planned - the oven spring was magnificent, the crumb texture beyond compare. Everything was going great until I tried tasting it. What a disappointment. Flat, blah, lifeless, are all in the expression index of this window dressing bread. The ultimate conclusion was provided by the most sensitive nose in the house, a miniature Dachshund by the name of Hannah was offered a piece. She sniffed it took it in her mouth and with a quick whip of the head tossed it back behind her. I thought, "this dog is onto something"...,
I immediately returned to using organic bread flour and the world of taste returned to its rightful place once again.
I have come to firmly realize that time, temperature, ingredients and judgement need to be carefully applied with slight alterations in the process flow to make up for slight deficits. This ability took the longest of all to acquire and I am still learning.
Processes that improve flavor are:
Happy Baking...,
Wild-Yeast
Diastatic malt results in increase maltose concentrations which yeast do not metabolize but LAB do. this may be the factor that increases flavor rather than the choice of organic vs. non-organic flour. It may be that the 'low cost' flour that you mention was not as high in protein as the organic flour. The only real way to compare organic vs non-organic is to test each batch for ash, protein, etc to insure they are equivalent. The label 'organic' only applies to the growing procedure and not the quality of the end product in terms of composition.
According to King Arthur:
"Diastatic malt powder is the "secret ingredient" savvy bread bakers use to promote a strong rise, great texture, and lovely brown crust. Especially useful when flour does not have barley malt added, as is true for most whole wheat flour and many organic flours.
What you getActive enzymes in diastatic malt help yeast grow fully and efficiently throughout the fermentation period, yielding a good, strong rise and great oven-spring. Add only a small amount, 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per 3 cups of flour. 1-pound package."
I use Central Milling's organic bread flour exclusively now - it has the malt addition. I've tried other non-malted organic flours - the results were not remarkable nor memorable in taste.
Wild-Yeast
I am under the impression that the tastes of my sourdough starter breads are not influenced at all by the flours I've used to make the starter itself. This has led me to believe that the sole function of the starter is to carry the leavening agent (yeast microorganisms) into the mix. In the recipes I've made, the percentage of starter to the rest of the mixture is pretty small compared to the flour so it really cannot make a taste difference. I've decided that my breads vary in taste solely because of the tastes of the particular mixtures of ingredients I use (flours, amount of salts and other flavorings such as herbs or eggs), and the duration of the rising periods. Am I alone in this?
is there any one particular bread stuck in your head or memory with which you compare?
Emotion and hunger, memories will influence flavour more than most will admit. Location, levels of stress, health and satisfaction at reaching a goal, ...alignment of the stars. Perhaps crust colour, salt % and way in which the bread is eaten or the choices in food pairing is influencing your palate. What is going on when this or that particular bread was tasted?
Basics coices in flour, taste of water (mineral content) choice of leavening and art of baking will flavour along with local or cultural foods spices and herbs. Music, dopamine levels, time of the day, choice of drink, hormones, season of the year, companionship.
Many outside variables other than the physical bread itself.
I've been using a 1:3:3 refreshment schedule, and my 100%-hydration starter seems to behave more consistently.
I really enjoy the lactic/buttery notes that results from a high-hydration, warm-fermented final starter build.
The first is the flavor or the grains. The 2nd is the flavor of the sourdough, the 3rd is the flavor of the add ins like fruits, nuts, seeds, cheese, herbs etc and the 4th is the flavor of the liquid used. I have tried to manipulate all of them to increase the complexity and depth of flavor in my breads.
For the grains the most important thing to do is make sure that you grind your own grains and use then freshly ground - any flour you buy will be much less tasty. . 2nd would be to use some sprouted grains freshly ground in the mix. Third are the flavor enhancers. Toadies, baked scalds, red and white malts and porridge are the main ones. and always autolyse. The more whole grain the longer the autiolyse.
Sourdough flavor is mainly the sour. If your starter and method is not producing a sour enough bread, my biggest complaint as well. then you need to do the things that inhibit the yeast so it takes longer to ferment and proof while increasing the number of LAB in the starter, levain and dough. The idea is to increase the normal LAB to yeast ratio of 100 to 1 in the starter levain and dough to something greater so that you inoculate the mix with more LAB and less yeast. The more time you have (the less yeast) and the more LAB you start with, the more sour the bread will be. 92-93 F is the temperature that LAB out produce yeast at a ration of 13 to 1 - but the yeast are only reproducing at the rate they do at 55 F (very slow) means more time before the bread is ready to bake and more sour. At 36 F, LAB out produce the yeast 3 to 1 but both yeast and LAB are very slow to reproduce so it takes a very, very long time for this to really get the LAB population up - think weeks!.
But the No Muss No Fuss starter method really starts to make sour bread after it has been stored in the fridge for 8 weeks with no maintenance. Whole flours , especially rye and wheat or a mix of both will make for a more sour starter. So 92 F is your friend when it comes to starter and levain builds and for bulk fermenting but it required a proofer. Retarding at 36 F helps for sour but it needs a long time to really work well. The key is make sure the starter, levain and dough don't run out of food.
High quality (high amount of starch and protein) flour in conjunction with proper autolyse ( flour qand water only) for the right amount of time and adding some white malt for home milled flour or using some sprouted grain makes a huge difference in the sour when there is plenty of food for the LAB to eat - and there is more of them to begin with in the mix.
Some combination of keeping the yeast down and LAB in the starter is most important (think building it with whole rye at 92 F and retarding it for weeks then build the levain at 92 F and retard it for 2 days before using it and then do dough development and bulk ferment at 93 F before retarding the dough for 12 hours and do the final proof at 92 F That will give you the most sour your LAB can deliver but it might be too sour.... so you will have to discover which combination of methods work the best for you.
No matter what, grinding you own grain, sprouting them, getting more LAB and less yeast in the mix, using high quality flour and the right temperatures for each stage of bread making will make your bread go from good to great tasting and taste is the only thing that matters, The rest is just eye candy.
Happy SD Baking
Yes, use better flour. The above replies offer good details on that.
Also, the longer the better if you are looking for depth of taste and sourness. Mine need over 12 hours of preferment or bulk fermentation for a good sour to even start to develop. Otherwise, my sourdough culture produces a mild flavor.
Daniel Leader, in his book Local Breads, does a good job of explaining the variables.
To add more details, I always use quality flours like King Arthur, Hodgson Mill, Uncle Bob's, Arrowhead Mills, Central Milling, and, sometimes, local, and / or organic flours. I've also used sprouted wheat flour, spelt, barley, rye, rice flour, and corn flour. None of it was the "cheap" stuff. I have also used soakers, and baked mashes (baked at 150F degrees for three hours), and I always autolyze.
I know how to and have retarded dough at many different temperatures for a variety of times from several hours to several days.
None of what I do seems to have a major effect on whatever recipe I use. I don't hardly ever use only white flours. Most of what I bake is a mix of some white flours, from 25 to sometimes 50%, but I always have a big percent of whole grain flours in my mixes. The breads have a fairly open crumb with moist textures -- probably the best thing about them -- and the crusts are good, not super crispy, but I do not expect that from a mix with a lot of whole grain flours. Oven spring is good, shelf life is good, and all the things we bake sourdough for are there, but I still think my bread(s) should have more flavor. I suspect this is a technical issue that I do not know about, as I have, on occasion (to answer Mini-Oven), made some really wonderfully flavored bread, but when I attempted to repeat the same using the same ingredients and the same techniques, the flavor was just not there. I do know about initially mixing up and keeping doughs at specific temperatures. I usually mix up at no more than 85 degrees and no less than 78 degrees after autolyzing for from 30 minutes to several hours with autolyzed mix kept at the above temps before adding the starter and the salt. I sometimes use pre-ferments, and sometimes I use levains. I almost always retard the final mix for at least twelve hours, and usually for a lot longer, at temps ranging from 36 to 55 degrees depending.
I am also aware of how much more flavor whole grain flours, soakers, and mashes contribute and the better tasting loaves I have baked have been with some or all of them. I have also converted my starters to 50 or 66% hydration using all rye, all whole wheat, and / or a mix. And, I sometimes still use a 100% hydration starter. I've used them kept at room temp for weeks, and I've used them chilled in the fridge for weeks without being fed. But, I am NOT referring to, or looking for sour.
What I do not understand is what causes the variation in flavor, and in my case, the lack of really pronounced flavor, which is usually the case with most of my bread when, as stated, I have (on rare occasions) baked loaves that were so good the aroma filled the house and the flavor was amazing. When I tried to replicate the same bread again -- using the same ingredients and the same techniques -- it did not happen.
The one thing I have NOT done is use diastatic malt powder, but I think small amounts of it are added to the flours I use anyway (?). Even if that is so, I think I should explore using it.
Thanks again to all who responded.