Trying to Get a Rise......or in Search of Elusive Oven Spring
I have been concentrating on Forkish's Field Grains #2 for consistency while I determine the best method for me to achieve the elusive oven spring. My goal was to find the right blend of technique, i.e., levain prep, percent of water, combination of grains, length of bulk ferment and length of proofing of the final loaves without over proofing in my quest for better height in my loaves as well as better scoring before baking. And let's not forget the baker's percentage formula....gotta figure that out too because I don't think I've been deducting the levain flour from the total dough flour....that's for next time.
Bulk fermentation only took 3 hours (Forkish's formula includes 2 gr. yeast) so after final shaping it was into the bannetons where it sat about 1 hour at room temperature.
Below...today's Field Grains #2 loaves compared to yesterday tasty, but less than spectacular loaf. I'm calling goal!
Comments
The great thing is that the holes have little taste, at least mine don't, and even if you don't get them... the bread doesn't taste any different! Well done and happy baking. The figuring out of all these bread things ....is the fun part!
Trouble is we're all used to artificial bread with huge oven spring. Natural yeast will not give you oven spring that bakers' yeast can produce. And shop bought bread is filled with everything under the sun to condition the dough that produces this bulked up huge loaf.
You are working with nothing but Flour, Water, Salt and Natural Yeast. You don't even have all the equipment that a mass producing bakery has. They will have special proving chambers which regulates the temperature, kneading machines, great big industrial ovens with perfect temperatures for the loaves. And further more they bake bread all day and we bake bread around our busy work day.
So first of all I think you'll have to readjust the image you have on "oven spring". Just work on getting a nice loaf with the best oven spring for your bread. Now bearing all that in mind here are a few pointers:
1. Try kneading it a bit more when forming the dough.
2. Add in an extra stretch and fold to see if that helps
3. Adjust proving times.
4. Are you getting your oven (and DO) hot enough?
Every bread for me is a bit of a challenge. Don't think i'll ever be able to set out to make a loaf and know exactly how it'll turn out.
Its the challenge that makes it fun! As well as the surprise and delight when I take the cover off the DO halfway thru to see what's transpired!
And yes, I have taken your advice at least for 2, 3, and 4. Its hard to knead that sloppy wet lump so its #2 for extra stretch & folds!
I'm not in it for the eating...that's for everyone I give it to...and hubby...he loves it....but I'm in it to make the best loaf I can and gain gobs of experience while doing it.
Work at the dough hard enough and it'll come together. Will be sticky at first, and hard work, but even very wet doughs will respond to kneading. Don't tempt to flour the work top just tip the dough out with your scraper then with the heal of your hand knead the dough. It'll stick a bit, just pull it up and back then knead again pushing away from you. Every couple of minutes scrape up the bits that have gotten away and keep on kneading. Might take up to 20min but eventually it'll come together. If you don't wish to do this then onto the next idea...
The French Slap and Fold: www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0 which is very good for wet doughs. Also quite energetic if you have the strength and confidence to try. Onto the next way...
Emmanuel Hadjiandreou advocates the following method which is also very effective (and good if you don't like the first two energetic methods).
Keeping the dough in the bowl: pinch one side of the dough (starting opposite you) and gently pull up and over pressing it down in the middle. Rotate the bowl slightly and repeat. Going round the dough till you feel it resisting. Cover the bowl and rest. This is one kneading. Try doing this for your stretch and folds however many times you're doing it at the moment. If you feel it needs more then add in some extra.
Well that's the kneading ideas for now. Another thing just occurred to me. If you're doing a large proportion of wholegrain then this will inhibit oven spring. If you do wish for more then why not up the ratio of bread flour a bit?
Have you done an all bread flour sourdough yet?
is how I do it usually although after I tip it out after bulk rise I do not...should I?
As far as an all bread flour sourdough....I don't think so but I'll put that on the list for my next bake! I'll bet it will come out spectacular with all the information I've acquired. If not, it will bird food!
After bulk rise then carry on as usual. Tip out onto the bench, shape and bench rest, shape again into banneton etc.
The recipe I've just sent you is really nice. Is basically all bread flour with a bit of whole rye. Quite a low hydration in comparison to what you've been doing. Should be easier to handle and has great results. Let me know what you think.
...is proofing. I place a sample of dough (about 30 g) into a small straight-sided glass and mark it's level. Once the dough has risen 40 - 50% higher, I score and bake. This method works well if the dough is at room temperature. If the dough is cold, the sample will riser more quickly than the loaf because of heat transfer.
FF
I've heard the 100% (or doubled) is too much so many do 90% but haven't heard of 40-50%
My experience is when u use the glass to monitor the raise, it actually went slower than the actual dough. If u are looking for a great spring u shouldn't proof it to 100% around 70% would be perfect!! So using the sample can be a very good estimation
understanding the Baker's Percentage is a game changer. I highly recommend you watch this 11 minute video on that topic.
http://stellaculinary.com/podcasts/video/what-is-the-bakers-percentage-video#comment-9901Once you grasp the BP system your understanding of bread takes a giant leap. You will be able to scale a loaf up or down in your mind. You will no longer be just a copier of some recipe you find online somewhere.
There are other bread related podcasts and videos on his website that will change your understanding of bread.
what he does is similar to the 1-2-3 method. Thanks for sharing.
You say "what he does is similar to the 1-2-3 method".
That is simply not true. The "Baker's Percentage" Is the wholly grail of the culinary arts, not just the bread industry. When professional bread bakers exchange recipes they do it in percentages. They don't even list what yeast or starter is used in the recipe. They know that yeast and starter is used to determine when they want or need to bake their dough.
The finest Cookbook ever written "Modernist Cuisine" by Nathan Myhrvold is all done in the Baker's Percentage format. I received that 5 volume collection of coffee table sized books as a gift and to be able to understand it I had to learn the baker's percentage system.
The 1-2-3 system to a professional baker would look like this.
1. 200 grams of sourdough starter (at 100% hydration)
2. 400 grams of water
3. 600 grams of flour
4. Add 1.8 to 2% of the weight of the flour in salt
A real baker would know this recipe is:
700 grams of flour = 100%
500 grams of water = 71.42% hydration
He/She would add 12 to 14 grams of salt.
A professional bread baker would know how to convert that recipe from a sourdough recipe to a commercial yeast recipe too. He would use 700 grams of flour, 500 grams of water, 12 to 14 grams of salt. He/She would use anywhere from 1 gram to 7 grams of yeast... Depending on when he wanted to bake his dough.
So... The Bottom line is the 1-2-3 system is not like the baker's percentage at all.
This chart is what professional bakers use as their guideline. Notice it doesn't list yeast/starter or specify what flour to use. That's all the bakers choice.
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/food_pictures/16766591221" title="image by Brian Foreman, on Flickr"><img src="https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7592/16766591221_df64a783f4_z.jpg" width="640" height="360" alt="image"></a>
Respectfully yours,
Wartface
what is the 1-2-3 method?
1 part starter
2 parts water
3 parts flour
+ 2% of flour for salt.
1:2:3 method.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9346/123-easy-formula-sourdough-bread
hydration only of bakers %, saying that every professional knows what the salt the yeast should be and can convert a yeast bread over to sourdough is that it is too simplistic and not at all close to reality for a SD bread.
I want people to be able to make Lucy's bread and have it turn out exactly the way it turned out for me.. That is why Lucy says things like how much pre-femented flour is to be used in the levain, how the levain is to be built, perhaps a progesssively larger 3 stage one using only the sifted hard low extraction bits of a sprouted and dried 4 grain home milled multi- grain mix and what the starter amount was and how it was built and maintained possibly a specially built whole rye one that was retarded for 8 weeks. Some is just words and method but some is critical percentage.
if you want to say
20% WW
20% W Rye
20% sprouted Spelt
20% Kamut
20% Sprouted barley
100% total flour with 15% pre fermented in a 3 stage levain at an overall 80% levain hydration with each stage being different using 8 g of rye sour starter at 66% hydration.
78.4% overall hydration - half Guinness and 1/4 yogurt whey and 1/4 reserved dried cranberry re-hydration cranberry juice
10% Toadies
2% each red and white malt and salt
12.5% Walnuts
15% re-hydrated dried cranberries,
Total % - 221.9%
So for SD breads you have to include % of pre-fermented flour and what kind of flour is used and what kind and how much starter seed to use at what hydration.
No question you can use the hydration only for a yeast bread of one flour, water, salt and yeast. But it breaks down for SD really quickly since the final product depends heavily on what kind and what starter amount is used and how the levain is built and how much pre-fermented flour is used. 69% hydration doesn't tell you what you enough of what you need to know.,
Happy Baking