Sharing some experience with Kefir bread
Hi
I'm relative new to this forum but has baked sourdough for several years. I mostly bake traditional dark rye breads with different nuts, whole grains and whatever seeds I have available and also rolls/buns. I'm planning on doing some posts on rye breads and share some of those wonderful danish rye bread recipes with the rest of you.
Back to kefir. I do a lot of water kefir drinks with different berry juices e.g. blueberries and black currant kefir with ginger and have experimented with bread leavening using just the kefir water. When done right I actually think that kefir bread can taste better than sourdough bread. I'm a lazy baker. I never activate my sourdough starter or create a a poolish. Typically I just pour in the kefir water (or sourdough directly from the fridge) and mix it with my flour, which is typically Manitoba flour mixed with old Scandinavian wheat sorts, and a little bit of honey, salt and water. I never mix it more than a couple of minutes and let sit on the kitchen table for 1-3 days until it's ready to be made into rolls (buns) or a bread and baked.
The leavening, when using kefir water, takes 12-24 hours longer but creates a wonderful result that include some of the fruit flavours of the kefir drink you have brewed.
Next i'm going to try the brine water from my vegetable fermentation and try if that can be used to leaven bread. That would be an interesting experiment.
Does any others have any experience with kefir bread?
I have been experimenting with kefir over the past several months, using it in several different types of bread. Kefir imparts a unique flavor to bread, which varies a great deal depending on the method used. You may be interested in some of my posts:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40585/kefir-bread
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41335/hearth-bread-kefir-sour
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41424/milwaukee-dark-rye-bread
Your bread looks delicious. I can see you create a prepatory sour and preferment. From my different experimentation it's my experience that I actually get a more complex flavor if I mix everything together right away and let it sit and ferment and rise and I'm even using a relatively dormant/low activity sourdough or kefir culture right from the fridge. (it's in use approx every 14 days - 1 month) It does take longer time to rise at room temperature, but the end result actually seems better.
So you could call it the lazy way, but I don't see the need of the extra work creating a preferment..
Cheers Gaffri
Just posted about improv-starters, kefir among them:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/42035/fun-sourdough-surprising-shortcuts-homemade-starter
Happy Baking
Karin
Good ideas you have
I'm just using approx. a glass of the water from my water kefir culture in my fridge and nothing more, but I'll try to use the brine water from my vegetable fermentation next time. it should also work because it contains some wild yeast along with tons of lacto-bacterias.. Ordinary natural yougurt or greek yougurt should also work fine i think..
Cheers Gaffri
Actually I only use approximately 1 teaspoon of honey, but I should have clarified that I normally only use it with my sourdough breads. This is for flavour and for boosting the fermentation process. The sweetness is not really detectable. Actually ancient Nordic bread recepies calls for the use of honey/salt combination and spontaneous fermentation.
I have tried adding honey when fermenting with Kefir, but that became too sweet and the same goes if I use the brewed waterkefir I make on a monthly basis. The best is to use the water from the fridge stored waterkefir culture. When it has rested a couple of days in the fridge, the sugar will have been eaten and a lot of lactobacteria and yeast will have formed. I'll just mix it with the rest of the water for my 68-70% hydrated dough.
I'm not sure how the ratio of lactobacteria vs. (wild) yeast differs in water and milk kefir. I do know that you also can make fermented water beverages with milk kefir. My guess is that milk kefir contains more lactobacterias. which are responsible for the yoghurt like texture and taste of milk kefir.
I don't think kefir is suitable for making Scandinavian styled rye breads, because they wont have that sour/tangy flavour that sourdough brings..
The lactobacilli in kefir seem to prefer lactose over other sugars. When using kefir, I now add lactose in the form of dried buttermilk. The brand I use (Buttermilk Blend from Saco Foods) contains sweet dairy whey, as well as dried buttermilk and lactic acid. You could also use nonfat dried milk to infuse lactose into your ferment.
Bob
Anyone care to share their recipes ? I just now mixed together my milk kefir and flour to make a starter. What recipes are you all using to make your bread ? thanks !
Yes, please share recipes.
Can this be done with store bought kefir that one did not grow directly from grains?
Thanks
dobie
I'm guessing that the lacto/yeast concentration is way less in store bought kefir drinks than at home. The ones I have tasted along with Kombucha drinks were very weak compared to home made versions.
The trick is to use the water from a kefir/water solution, that haven't been feed for a week or two. The flavour will become distinct yeasty and zingy (I always take a zip to measure the sweetness) and to decide whether to replace the water and add more sugar, or in my case concentrated blackcurrant juice. The concentration will be sufficient to get the fermentation of the dough started. Although it will take a bit longer than with traditional sour dough, but you will be rewarded with a lovely flavour..
I make a wet (approx 80% hydration) dough (1000g of flour in total). Choose whatever grain types you want, but adding 10-20% organic wholegrain wheat or rye flour to an wheat base gives it a good bite and taste. Pine nuts, walnuts or flaxseed is some of my favourite items to add when I make rolls.
So you all use milk kefir? Never tried that. All my kefir bread making is done using water kefir :-) Next project is trying to use the brine from my vegetable fermentation to create bread. It should be possible..
Have a nice Sunday :-)
AbeNW11
I think that is a sound idea. That basic SD recipe comes in at about 65% hydration, which I think is safe for an experiment like this.
I think I will cut the recipe in half, just cause I'm not too confident it'll work out. But I also think, as you suggest, doubleing the Kefir starter is probably a good idea. It'll boost the milk component of the liquid a bit, but that is probably such not a bad thing, at least in this initial experiment.
So I'll use 150 g Kefir starter (at 100%), 212.5 Bread flour (total flour 287.5 including starter content), 112.5 water (187.5 total liquid including starter component) and 5 g salt. That keeps me at the same 65% hydration and half the final dough weight.
Fruit yeast starter and Kamboucha starter are next on my list, but that will after I try the tangzhong roux method first (thanks for that recipe, BTW).
Oh, and regarding the Kefir dough I have, it's not moldy and still smells great. I'm just sprinkling 1/4 ts total of Saf T dry yeast on the stretch and folds (about a third at a time). That should probably work (I'll see).
Thanks again,
dobie
Got a good plan there keep us informed how it goes. I'm interested in results and might be my next venture.
You will love Fruit Yeast Water. I ventured into YW a few months ago. Makes a lovely bread and great oven spring. You won't look back.
I will get back to you about the kefir starter one way or the other in 3-4 days. I just mixed it up.
If I remember, dabrownman has a tutorial on making a Fruit Yeast Water starter. I think he was using raisens, but I do have some organic, no oil added currants that would probably work. I think I'll look up the tutorial and just get it started. Why wait?
dobie
Is so easy to make. You can use any fruit and apply the same principle. Easier than sourdough starter as there is no feeding or discarding. Add ingredients and wait. As long as it is unsulphured and no oil then anything will work. Raisins lend themselves well to FYW like rye does to sourdough starter but you can use dried apricots or even goji berries. Fresh fruit will work too.
https://youtu.be/vcfuUtbnteY
Just to clarify
I use my water kefir just like I use my sour dough starter, that is directly from the refrigerator, no preferment what so ever. That's my lazy version. Actually my Danish rye bread is made the same way. I see no need to preferment, The process just takes a bit longer for the wild yeast/lactos to kick in :-)
If you are interested you should try real Danisj tangy rye bread with tons of kernels, malt sirup and beer. I can share some basic recipes if you want..
Thank you gaffri
Is your water Kefir home brewed from the grains?
As for me, I would certainly appreciate your Danisj tangy rye bread recipe and any of your other favorites. Definetly sounds like something I would like. Thanks.
dobie
Sound different. Perhaps you might have had more success with making a starter but Gaffri's sounds more like an ongoing cultivated starter.
Yes Abe, I believe you're right.
If I'm right, Gaffri is home brewing water Kefir at home and uses that directly to the dough, I think as the entire liquid component.
I have got to get me some grains. They look like little cauliflower florets as I understand and each batch of brew grows more grains, so you never run out. Quite the opposite I've been told. I've also been told the grains freeze well (as a back-up).
I've had some store bought (ginger infused and effervescent) and it was quite delicious. Not sweet, slightly acidic and clean tasting. Pretty pricey too as I recall.
dobie
Just a quick update.
I attempted a starter of store bought Kefir and Bread flour (100% hydration).
I mixed it and left it at room temp (60-70F).
First two days, nothing (but still smelt great). Third day, I could see a small bubble hole or two.
Fourth day, it looked the same (small bubble hole or two), however; judging by the snail trail up the container the brew had tripled and then collapsed. But it doesn't look like an 'active starter' as I am familiar with them.
I think I should feed it (or at least stir it), but haven't yet. Do you think I should feed 50/50 Kefir and flour or water and flour?
The old dough I had from the first attempt made a very interesting boule. First, the crust was almost 'brain' like. I've never seen anything like it and it was quite pretty, very textured. The bread had a mix of large holes and rather dense crumb surrounding them.
What I take from that, is that by stretching and folding ADYeast in at the end, it will give you some big holes in the crumb, but is not the way to leaven a bread in it's own.
The flavor was no longer at all 'Kefir-ish' and, in fact it was the most sour bread I have ever baked.
Also, after four days, I'm not so sure the yeast in the new starter (if it exists) is from the Kefir and not the flour.
But again, ideas on feeding the new starter?
dobie
So, once it showed signs of life, I started feeding it 50/50 AP flour and water. Every other day at first and now everyday.
It is at room temp (about 65F) and quite active. Still don't know if I have just created a starter from AP or if the commercial Kefir's Lacto's are in there.
It's been over two weeks, so I guess in about another week I will do a simple baguette from my 'normal' starter and another using this 'Kefir' generated one to see if there's any difference in flavor or behavior.
dobie
Yes I have a kefir culture I regularly feed (for bread purposes) and to make ginger ales or fizzy fruit drinks.
I'll post pictures from the making of my latest project later this weekend. Yesterday I made 1kg 80% hydrated Doug and mixed in 200ml water kefir and 100ml brine from my pointed red cabbage fermentation. 24 hours later and it has doubled. More info in a separate post ☺
Gaffri
Thank you for that about your Kefir culture. I can't wait to get mine.
I know there are so many fermented foods to experiment with, but to this date I have only done dill pickles (fairly successful), but one thing at a time for me. This summer, I will hopefully brew some kraut and various other things.
BTW, I am currently attempting to grow a Kombucha scoby (sorry for the previous misspellings). I have been convinced that Kombucha does in fact contain yeasts as well as LABs and might be useful in this persuit.
dobie
Just a quick update. The SCOBY is growing well.
It won't be long before the Great Kombucha Levain experiments.
dobie
i'm wondering about the nutrition of bread made with milk kefir starter. traditional long ferment sourdough bread is nutritious (from what i have read). this nutrition is my primary concern in consuming bread. does anyone have any thoughts about this? thanks!