Learning the hard way
I'd been baking our daily sourdough bread for over ten years and growing increasingly frustrated by the obvious superiority of artisan loaves sold at our local food coop. My bread wasn't bad but it tended to be very heavy with a dense but weak crumb. It made nutritious toast but often fell apart when sliced for sandwiches.
A couple of months ago I was able to attend a 2 day workshop on grains and bread making put on by Western Washington's Bread Lab. It was an eye-opening experience and an introduction to techniques I'd never really been able to grasp through my own trial & error efforts. High hydration, stretch-and-fold, using levains, shaping and slashing -- I'd read the books but seeing it first hand, in person, had me itching to get home to my oven.
By posting here at the freshloaf I'm hoping to continue improving my bread. For example, I don't know how to recognize over/under proofing. When in doubt I tend to "wing it" but that isn't a very efficient way to make steady progress.
I use a home built cob over and I bake 2 loaves every few days, hoping to get in enough practice that I will finally develop that important sixth sense about the dough.
Your comments and criticisms would be most appreciated. Be frank, I'm a retired freelance writer so I can handle it!
what the rest of the loaf looks like as long as it tastes good! The hardest part of SD baking is knowing when the bread is ready for the oven and having the oven at the right temperature when the bread is ready, A rough rule of thumb is that the more whole grains in the bread, the less proofed it should be say 85 % - for a 50% whole grain or more. White breads can be proofed more, say 90% or so If 100% proofed the dough is over proofed and will be flatter with less spring and less overall height.
Happy baking
"A rough rule of thumb is that the more whole grains in the bread, the less proofed it should be say 85 % - for a 50% whole grain or more."
I don't actually know what you mean by "85%" proofing. The loaves I baked were 35% rye and kamut and 30% spelt. About 78% hydration.
the final rise before baking after the dough is shaped. 100% proofed is where the dough has risen in volume 100% or twice its original size, 85% is where i has risen 85% more in volume than its original shaped size,
I also bake in a cob oven, it's lots of fun but timing is key! I do an over night cold ferment in the fridge then pull in the morning of baking for final proof. Usually the proof takes 2-3 hours depending on which starter I use and the flour I use. Typically I use 20% spelt or rye with the remainder being KA bread flour.
My rule of thumb is to pull the loaves from the fridge one hour after I fire my oven. It usually takes 2.5 hours to heat and even out temps in my oven. Then about another hour for the oven floor to be about 500F. That gets me in the neighborhood for baking my loaves.
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I finished shaping my loaves late in the evening, then put them in the refrigerator overnight. I had the oven at 500f late in the afternoon so I pulled out the loaves, slashed, then put them right into the oven -- 20 minutes covered in cloches, then 20 minutes uncovered. Should I have allowed the dough to warm up for an hour or two before baking?
It would depend on your loaf preparation the night before. I typically use a stretch and fold on my dough for 2-2.5 hours after autolyse. I stretch & fold every half hour. My hydration is usually bout 67. After proofing in the S&F period, I do a first round loaf forming and let the dough set for about 20 min. un covered. I'm looking to form a light skin on the loaf at that time. Then I flip the loaves over and re-form the loaves in what ever final shape I want stretching the loaf skin I just made. The resulting loaves set in the bannetons covered for 30 min. before going into the fridge for the night. The next day they are pulled and warm/proof for the 2-3 hours I mentioned before. All said and done my loaves get nearly 5-6 hours of proofing besides the 8 to 12 hours they get in the fridge.
Depending on your starter, flours used in your recipe and how long your first proof was, It may not need too long of a proof after you pull it from the fridge. It all depends on how long it proofed before. Over all though, I would say you may need more time out of the fridge before baking.
What would be the effect of leaving the dough out longer, after removing it from the fridge? What is the purpose of that?
Basically to allow it to finish proofing if it needs to. I would also think to allow it to be more uniform in temp through out.
The crumb is not that great for a normal bread, but perhaps it is as good as it gets with the formula you are using.
You have been baking for a very long time but if you are not happy with the results you are getting, maybe it is better to follow a tried and true formula at this point -- one that looks like the bread you are going for? Once you get what you are looking for from a visual perspective, you can try swapping out some of the flour for rye and spelt and appreciate what those flours are doing for or to your loaves and adjust accordingly if desired.
I've been on the no-commercial-yeast wagon for over a year now (do they give out tokens for that?), and I still find myself, in the midst of the baking process, worried and uncertain: is the dough going to rise? is it done fermenting? is it done proofing? will there be enough food for the yeasts and bacteria to eat until the holocaust of baking? Even after having spent a month in rural France working with a paysan-boulanger, a formation that should have rendered me more sure of myself than ever before, I am still never 100% comfortable, and my bakes usually end with as much curiosity as satisfaction.
Because sourdoughs are so responsive to the most imperceptible changes in the environment, from temperature, to humidity, to ash content in its food, to a host of other factors that we aren't even beginning to measure, it makes a universal science of sourdough nearly impossible (unfortunately, Kant passed away before finishing his Metaphysics of Levain). There are, of course, some general rules, but all of us sourdough bakers must have stumbled upon (or been victim), at one point or another, the exception to this or that rule.
To speak more practically, I have had more success putting dough into the oven straight from the refrigerator, without first warming them up, but that requires a lot of patience, as the proofing time can sometimes stretch to 20+ hours, depending on the composition of the dough and the temperature of the fridge. Leaving it out after taking it out of the fridge would, comme dit tchism, allow the dough to come to room temperature more evenly, as the outer crust will warm more quickly than will the center. Additionally, leaving the dough out will speed up the proofing process, at a speed that depends on the size of the dough. Even after four hours after being taken out of the fridge, after a 14-hour cold proof, the big miches that I make are still cold to the touch. Well-proofed, for certain, but definitely not warm.
I write all of this to say that you're certainly not alone in your frustrations, especially when it comes to proofing. I have found that even the most well-shaped sourdough loaves "gang aft agley," in the words of Robert Burns ; and I have yet to find a test that ensures definitively that the loaf will not have a blow-out. Perhaps it's not that one's process or techniques must change in order to approach the perfection of the artisan loaves down at the co-op, but rather than one must redefine, for himself, the criteria of perfection.
A lot of great information above. I love the look of the scoring. I wonder if that adds to the flatness of the bread. One thing scoring does is guide the final loaf shape. If you are looking for less dense crumb, then you want to encourage the bread to go up. Your beautiful scoring looks like it would promote the bread to go sideways. Just a thought.
The generous responses I've received to my original post and follow-ups have given me a great deal to think about. Now I really understand why this website was so frequently mentioned by participants of the Bread Lab workshop!
lepainSamidien, although my earlier baking eventually led to a great deal of frustration these recent experiences have been even more satisfying for their element of suspense. I'm pleased not to have had any disasters since learning stretch-and-fold, etc. so my goal now is to achieve consistent results under varying conditions. We have a very busy life in rather rustic conditions. I hope to learn how to integrate successful baking into a somewhat unpredictable daily schedule.