HELP: Beginner with Problem Buns
Hello, everyone,
This is my first time posting, although I've browsed your forums quite a bit lately, and even grabbed a recipe or two. Thanks for those!
This morning I made Beth Hensperger's Bread Lover's Bread Machine Cookbook (isn't there an abbreviation for that?) Hamburger Rolls to go with our burger cookout tonight. They came out looking quite lovely, tall with deep gold sesame-dusted tops. They were good, but just missed the mark. They were a little bit heavier than I'd hoped. I'm after a very light, fluffy bun. These were more substantial than that. Here are the ingredients:
8 oz. Spring Water
1 Large Egg
4 TBsp. unsalted Butter, cut into pieces
2 TBsp. Sugar or Honey
15 oz. Bread Flour with extra to adjust hydration if needed.
1/4 cup dry Milk Powder
2 TBsp. instant Potato Flakes
1 1/2 tsp. salt
2 1/4 tsp. IAD Yeast
I made them exactly as written, baked at 375F for 15 minutes. No additional flour or water was needed; the dough looked, handled and rose just fine. Can you offer any suggestions to improve them? Or perhaps point me to another recipe that might suit me better? I'll be your best friend and take you to the circus!
My first thought is that's a lot of butter - you're half way to brioche.
I have a recipe that's similar but uses only 2 tbsp butter, and I put half the egg in the dough and beat 1 tbsp water into the other half egg for an egg wash before baking, they turn out nice and light. You can always brush with melted butter when they come out of the oven if you want them more buttery in the end.
The other thing to consider is handling - only you know if they had too much rise knocked out of them during shaping and if they were well proofed afterwards.
Good luck!
Half way to brioche, but what a luscious flavor.
The 2-lb version of the recipe (I made 1.5-lb of dough) calls for the same 1 large egg. Will egg make a heavier loaf? See what happens when you reply to beginners? More questions!
As for handling - they rose well after shaping, and again in the oven, so I *think* they were fine. But were they really? Well, I'm too new at this baking thing to know. I've only made a few rolls in my life. These were the best-looking (I used an egg wash to glue sesame seeds to them), and more tender than my last attempt. So that's progress of a sort.
Hope you enjoyed your cookout!
It's hard to provide a definitive answer without more info, but depending on your flour and weather conditions, try adding a bit more water/milk as you mix the dough. I also made burger buns today, from a KAF recipe I've used before. This time, I incorporated caramelized onion, poppy seed and some wheat germ, so knew I'd have to add a bit more water. I also wanted them as light as possible, so I took the water as far as I could, and it worked. They not only smell incredible, they are light as a feather. Can't wait for dinner!
Keep baking and sharing!
Cathy
One of my grandsons commented that the burgers were "Just like a fancy restaurant" because of the sesame seeds that topped the buns. He's 9, and a riot. He did enjoy the bun. His kid brother picked the seeds off his bun, because he doesn't like them. He's never had them before, but he knows that whatever they are, they don't belong on a burger bun. What was I thinking?
I will definitely try adding more liquid, maybe milk, to the recipe. Thanks for the tip. Hot dog buns seem like a good bet for this weekend. No sesame seeds on those, so maybe the 5-year-old will be happy.
So, it all worked out just fine. What a terrific grandma to baked for them! Congratulations!
or half bread and half AP. Perhaps the bread flour is too strong (too much gluten) for a softer bun.
Mini :)
Was about to edit my post when I saw this pop up. I agree that AP flour might help as well.
<half bread and half AP>
These are the things I lose sleep over. Which flour is best for a given application? WHY is it best? What are the characteristics of the basic forms of flour for baking, AP, Bread and WW? More importantly to me, how can I KNOW which flour is correct?
Is there a primer on flour somewhere? I've been scouring the interwebs (you can find ANYTHING there, right?) and feeling no love at all. *sigh* I can see it's going to be another sleepless night.
Thanks for the tip, Mini. If adding some milk doesn't fix them, I'll swap out some flour. I am using KAF bread flour, which I'm told has a higher protein content than the other national store brands.
Sandy
If you want more height on a bread, then usually bread flour is good as the higher gluten helps hold the rise better. Bread flour can be more chewy as well. If you want a less crusty bread or one with less chew then AP flour can help. Both of these do depend on other factors as well, but in general this is how you choose.
For buns, the height is important, so I don't know if all AP is the answer. I think half/half is where I would start. Also be aware that bread flour absorbs more water so the hydration might need a little adjustments.
FWIW, I have made enriched soft white bread loaves with both bread and AP flour. It can depend on the technique and the formula used.
You already have milk powder, so I don't see why milk would help (unless you mean add more powder or using whole milk instead of the powder). If anything, I would try without the egg (adding a little water to compensate). But still egg wash. Speaking of which, make sure your egg wash is applied lightly.
Just to throw another monkey wrench into the works, osmotolerant yeast might give you better results as well. Have fun googling haha.
Thanks, Maverick,
This is the sort of knowledge I lack.. Bread flour. Height. Structure. Chew. Got it. I'm a bit like Johnny 5 in "Short Circuit"; I need input.
The milk I referenced is indeed additional liquid, just to amp up the hydration. You say the egg wash should be applied lightly. I'm guessing that if it's too heavy it can interfere with oven spring?
I am not looking up osmotolerant yeast. Not this year, anyway. I've got lots of IAD yeast to get me through the next several months. Besides, I'm pretty sure it's some aberrant mutation that a nice old lady like me wants to stay well clear of. No doubt the Google Machine's age filter will pop up, telling me to "Move along. This is not for you." :-D
Sandy
Double post for some reason
One difference between the recipes we each used was the type of flour. Mine called for AP flour, I used KAF. Thanks, Mini, for catching that.
We tried them with last night's dinner and they were soft, with a light, even crumb and able to absorb the juices from our sandwich fillings (pulled pork), without getting gummy or soggy. They browned unevenly, though had been rotated in the oven. It would be less noticeable with an egg wash and seeds, but I gave them an extra 2 minutes in the oven for a deeper color, then brushed the tops with melted butter, which left the tops nicely soft.
I am happy with the onion/poppy seed addition. The wheat germ wasn't noticeable, but I feel good about that, too. Will definitely make them again and could use some grandkids to share with... maybe some day.
Cathy
Hi Cathy,
Thanks for mentioning the flour difference. It's something for me to keep in mind. I'm taking notes on all that you helpful bakers have written.
Sandy
27% butter does sound a bit high, but I am wondering when it was added. Are you using a bread machine or just the recipe from the book? If mixing with a mixer or by hand, if the butter was added too soon that can make a difference in the final texture as it affects gluten development.
You say you made them exactly as written, but I don't really know how the book tells you to make them. I did find this on TFL:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17329/buns-sandwiches
They look like they would be on the chewier side rather than fluffy (I personally like chewy buns on hamburgers, but know what you mean). I would look for a Pan de Mie or a sandwich White Bread recipe and just make buns out of that (plus an egg wash if not included). Those tend to be lighter.
That recipe looks like a variant on the one I used. The author of the TFL recipe used ¼ cup mashed potatoes, Hensperger calls for 2 Tbls potato flakes. So my beginner's guess is that those are just about equivalent. The TFL version would have more moisture content, wouldn't it?
The original is a bread machine recipe. Strictly dump (in order) and hit a button. That's how I made it. Mine looked very similar to the photos from the TFL variant. Borderline chewy is an apt description. They were moist enough, just a bit heavy. I tried earlier to upload a photo, but kept getting stuck in 'spinning pizza of death' hell.
I've got a white sandwich recipe that I made once, and found it was almost too fluffy, a little closer to Wonder Bread than I wanted. But when I made a variant of it using ½ WW flour, it made a terrific wheat sandwich loaf. So maybe if I use ¼ white WW and ¾ bread flour it would be just right? Or maybe back off on the liquid a little? Admittedly, the as-written white version has really high hydration, almost 100%, IIRC. (look at me, using words like hydration).
This brings me to another question, on the nature of various loaf sizes. Will buns, by virtue of having such a large relative surface area, tend to be less fluffy than a sandwich loaf made with the same recipe? Would I likely have success using the recipe as written, but made into buns?
Sandy
Chef Ciril Hitz is known for advocating using the same dough recipe for a variety of different breads. Plus if you look at shaping videos, you will see that most of them are using the same dough, but shaping them different. Anyway you look at it, if you find a formula you like, you can change the shape, size, fillings, etc. as long as you adjust your cooking time accordingly.
To answer your question, the crumb should be similar. Just use the same recipe and make them into buns. I would say you should add an egg wash for buns though if the original loaf recipe didn't call for one.
Well, now you're going to laugh at me. Thinking of all the sensible advice I've been given tonight, I began to think that too-soft white sandwich dough might be the ticket. So I gave the recipe a look. It's right there in my notes, and I quote (how often do we get to quote ourselves?):
"5 stars for the wheat bread version. The white version is more like Wonder Bread (3-4 stars) and might be better suited to hamburger/hot dog buns."
I made those notes about 3 weeks ago. Told you i was old.
I will be sure to give them a light egg wash. The first buns I ever made had no wash. They were sad.
Sandy
There you go. I just realized I kept saying rolls when I meant buns, but I think you knew what I meant. But speaking of rolls . . . Skip the egg wash and brush them with melted butter right after they come out of the oven instead, and you will have some nice soft dinner rolls.
Thanks, Maverick
I'll report back next week with results.
... it's one of the privileges of menopause. Oh wait, though, I did it before that, didn't I. Have forgotten what excuse I used then, or I'd quote it now.
But I digress. As usual.
Anyway... I know you're looking to adjust your existing recipe rather than try a new one, but if you feel like venturing farther afield you might be interested in this recipe from KA: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/beautiful-burger-buns-recipe. I've tweaked it some to suit my tastes, and the tweaked version is my go-to for hot dog and hamburger buns, garnering raves at every outing. It's still a bit richer and more substantial than anything you could buy, but that isn't a BAD thing!
In my version I use a LOT less sugar - 1tbsp or less - and I pull a little of the flour and water out of the main recipe to make a tang zhong. And I cheat and melt the butter. ;-) Have been brushing with melted butter before and after baking, but I think next time I'll take a leaf out of DA's book and use milk instead.
Also, FWIW, I agree with everyone here who advocates using AP rather than bread flour for a soft bun like this one. That alone may make exactly the difference you're looking for; bread flour is too strong and assertive for this application. KAF AP does tend to demand a little more hydration than other brands, BTW: the recipe I linked, being from their site, takes that into account, but YMMV.
Thanks for linking that recipe. Some of my buds on Chowhound suggested using a tangzhong to get the soft fluffy rolls we crave. I'll try that with the KA recipe.
One happy thing... knowing the first batch of rolls were a bit too substantial for our burgers, I decided to make sloppy joes. Brilliant! After brushing the open faces with butter and toasting them, we had perfect little platters for the joes. And heating them seemed to lighten them a little, too.
... bet they'd be great for pulled pork, too!
BTW I did several experimental runs with the tangzhong, and was surprised at how little of it I ended up using in the formula that worked best for me. First try was 22g flour and 112g water, and that was too much (hmmmm, my notes don't say what it was that I didn't like about it, only that it was too much) - I ended up using 1/3 to 1/2 that amount. A little sometimes goes a long way, I guess.
I know pulled pork on a bun is almost gospel here in the south, but I think a fork makes a perfect pig delivery device, and with no bun to fill me up, I get to eat more BBQ. I've even been known to use my fingers when no utensils were provided. I'm a rebel.
Flour/water amounts noted, thanks.
Totally with you on the use of OEM fingers for all kinds of meat delivery. OTOH, sometimes there are guests, and sometimes those guests expect breadstuffs and utensils and other such fripperies. Besides, the more bun THEY eat, the more meat and lovely glop for US.
or pizza just ignore and move your curser and enter, works for me. I sat awhile and watched it, waiting, just ignore it. I think it is just a visual exercise. Watch it too long and like me, you will loose a few more nouns as time passes. :)
Protein (plural) in flour without the spec. sheet for that flour, is a guessing game. It has to do with the type of grain, part of the grain that is milled and what is sifted out. The outside contains the most protein but the least amount of gluten. Protein content on the package doesn't tell you the amount of gluten in it but it can help you guess. Whole flours containing bran will contain more total protein but less gluten (also a protein) per gram. There is a flour primer here somewhere...
If you are looking to raise the protein content of basically a carbohydrate food (wheat starch and sugar) think of adding the protein in form of seeds, whey, cheese, legumes, quinoa, etc. or think about including higher protein grains/grasses.
This is true, but since she is using King Arthur Flour it makes it easier to discuss the characteristics of bread vs AP flour. Have fun baking.
I often find bread flour too strong for my uses. Bread flour has good holding power for long ferments and day or days long wet dough and sourdoughs. It takes a lot of abuse. But for faster yeasted breads that are all wheat, AP is my flour of choice.
Generally the higher the protein the more liquids a flour tends to absorb. So when subbing, keep that in mind.
Tip: When stepping down from a bread flour to an AP, hang on to some of the water when mixing to see how well the flour blends, if you need it, add it. It is usually a Tablespoon or two difference.
Hi Mini,
Thanks for solving my photo problem. I think I've got it right now. Here's my pic, I hope?
I thought they looked lovely, and they really were pretty good, but if I want my dude to like them better than the $4 rolls from the store bakery, they need to be better. I'll get there, thanks to you good people.
Sandy
-end of McDonald's quote.
I think you are already there! Lovely Hamburger Buns!
Not quite, Mini. They were pretty, thank you, but too hearty for a simple burger. Now for a big monster patty when no simple light roll will do, they'd likely be perfect. We're after a more tender bun. We want to let thinner patties shine.
I'll get there!
Sandy
Commercial buns have lots of "dough enhancers" and bleached flour that make the bread dough rise to volumes impossible without the chemicals. A one pound loaf of homemade bread looks pretty small compared to one pound of "store bread." I would rather have bread a bit more "substantial" myself. Those hamburger buns look just fine to me, too. You may find that your grandsons' preference changes once they adjust to the natural grain flavors of your homemade breads. They will start to be aware of the odd flavors that the bleached flour and dough enhancers give to factory-produced, commercial breads.
Hi embth,
Thanks for your comments. The rolls my dude prefers are the fresh ones baked in-store, in the bakery. I'm not sure of the ingredients, and they probably do use enhancers. But those are the rolls he likes best, so I'll do my best to recreate their texture. They bear little resemblance in taste or shape to the ones that are all perfectly matched, sold in the bread aisle. Mine are close, so I'm sure I can get there.
I know a lot of people prefer heartier breads. I like lighter breads for sandwiches and burgers. I want to be able to enjoy a little salad or a few fries with it, but when the bread is hearty, it fills me up so much it's all I can do to eat one 4-oz burger. A lighter, softer bread is not so filling for me. I think my grandsons liked them more than my dude and I did.
I do like hearty artisan loaves, too, who doesn't? They're great alongside a salad or bowl of soup, or all alone with a little olive oil or butter. Yum.
Sandy
For buns all AP works best. I would give an egg yolk only a try too. You could also cut half the butter and replace it with butter flavored Crisco or even better lard. All of these things should help get you to store bought fluffy yet still missing the dough enhancers they probably have in their mix. I'm with Maverick on having a more substantial bun for hamburgers, sausages and hot dogs. The other ones just can't stand up to the abuse.
Good luck experimenting - but your buns looks great :-) Sorry couldn't resist because they do!
PS.... instead of butter I use milk brushed on top as they come out of the oven to keep the crust soft - they don't have that butter taste but aren't oily either.
Thanks for the tip on milk. The only thing I don't like about brushing butter on the finished bread is the fat it leaves on them. I'll try milk next time.
Sandy
Having kids, I know what you mean about their expectations when it comes to bread. One of my tricks is to use some white whole wheat in recipes. The "normal" red whole wheat has too prominent a taste so it is hard to sneak in. When it comes to fluffy breads, it is harder to put in without being caught. Either way, it is still better for you than the typical store aisle kind (the deli section ones can be pretty good though).
Edit: I just noticed your kid likes the ones form the store bakery. I agree that those are overpriced. I am sure you can replicate those. They usually list ingredients. I am curious if there is egg in there or not (may be listed for the egg wash though). I think the egg can make it more chewy. I love eggy buns for that reason. Let us know how the next batch comes out.
Oh, I messed up. The dude who likes the bakery rolls isn't one of the grands, they'll eat most any bread I give them. It's my husband. I apologize for giving the wrong impression.
I made a fresh batch of hot dog/sandwich rolls today, using the recipe that gave me the almost-too-soft white loaf. We'll try them for lunch tomorrow.
Sandy
Haha. Is there a difference? Tell your husband from one dude to another that I can relate. Let us know how these turned out.
The latest batch of buns made with the too-soft white loaf recipe came out very well, much closer to our perfect rolls. They were a bit large for our wieners, but no matter, that's a simple portion fix.
As written, the recipe calls for water and vegetable oil, which I found a bit bland and slightly coarse in the crumb, as opposed to the ideal bun. If I add some milk powder and replace the oil with butter, will that improve the taste and texture just a bit? Will I need to increase water slightly to accommodate the addition of the milk powder?
I think now that the reason the first loaf was so very soft was that it was right about the time a big line of storms was passing by, driving the humidity way up. Yesterday was much drier, about as dry as Tampa gets. I did add an extra tablespoon of water yesterday, because the dough seemed drier during mixing than the first loaf. I think that's on the right track, and that paying close attention to the weather, I might alter the liquid content by a significant amount from one batch to the next. Yesterday's buns were absolutely not as moist as the first loaf.
Sandy
I don't think you need to add water with the addition of the milk powder (I could be wrong). But you might need to lower the amount of water if replacing oil with butter. Oil is 100% fat and butter is not and has some water in it.
Thanks, Maverick.
Try these http://mookielovesbread.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/hamburger-hot-dog-onion-parmesan-cream-cheese-buns/
I think they may work for you.