August 31, 2014 - 4:48am
Help/advice required - dough turning to glue
Hey folks,
So my dough's being really weird this past week. Even relatively dry doughs quickly turn to glue when mixed. If you have 95 seconds to spare, please observe this action-packed video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN66Ki-hXuo
I've never had this problem before. The dough in that video is approx. 60% hydration, I believe, You'll see that the dough starts to pick up, then quickly starts 'melting' around the 80 second mark.
Coincidentally, this only started happening since switching from Bacheldre to Shipton flour, but I before I get in touch with Shipton I wanted to see what the gurus on this site thought.
Any ideas?
Share
My sympathies,
Looks like thiol interference from here. Is this yeasted, or sourdough? Green flour could do this, but so can sourdough. We need to figure out where the thiols are coming from to correct the problem.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/121566#comment-121566
Please note that the photos in that post are of excessive proteolysis (a whole different problem), and they are provided as a contrast to what thiol interference looks like --- a loose-looking "dough" that will stretch seemingly forever and sticks tenaciously to anything it touches. Does that describe what you're seeing?
If you're still working on this batch, a few extra folds and longer fermentation time could help you save it.
-dw
Thanks for the reply, Debra. Yup, that sounds like you've hit the nail on the head there. It's a sourdough, and I made new starters when I switched flours a week or so ago. There was nothing experimental about the doughs involved - they're breads I've been making for a while with my old flour source just fine.
I skim read your post in the link you posted (just on my way out, so will give it a proper read later tonight), but I saw you managed to get the problem sorted in 9-10 days. Does this mean that the issue is likely originating from the flour source itself, so even if I create a new one from scratch (from those same flours) it'll still be a PVA glue starter?
Does this mean that the issue is likely originating from the flour source itself, so even if I create a new one from scratch (from those same flours) it'll still be a PVA glue starter?
The organisms initially starting up your starter originated from the flour you are using, though that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the flour. This happens sometimes. The microbial profile is still in transition, and since you just created this one, starting over may not produce a different result. It's a game of chance, and entirely your choice which approach to take. You could spend a week and possibly end up right back where you are now, and then have to go the extra 10 days, or you can put the intensive care into this one. Or, you can do both, but I'm sure you can get to a healthy starter with this flour :-)
dw
Hi,
Thank you for the action packed video, well done! : )
What you are observing is the differences in mixing tolerance of different flours. In August-September millers use wheat from a new crop year and this gives slightly under-aged flour (both wheat grain and wheat flour need to be aged to give good bread dough). Normally, millers blend two crops for a period of time to let the new wheat age.
So you either got a flour with lower protein quality, or flour from new crop that hasn't aged enough prior to milling. In both cases, mixing tolerance is lower, so dough easily disintegrates during mixing.
Frequently, low mixig tolerance comes together with low fermentation tolerance. So, besides watching your dough like a hawk during mixing, to avoid overmixing, watch it during fermentation as well and improve it if necessary by increasing the size or acidity of prefermented flour in formula, number of folds, fermentation temperature and length of bulk fermenation, amount of ascorbic acid, etc.
Michel Suas describes the concepts of mixing tolerance and fermentation tolerance of strong, normal and weak flours in ch 6 of his Advanced Bread textbook.
mairana
Thanks for the advice, Mariana. If I'm using flour that means dough disintegrates after 80 seconds of machine mixing, I'll be seriously unhappy with Shipton!
I think I'm going to start my starter from scratch again, and blindly hope that the problem doesn't persist. If the same thing occurs, then I'll have to try your excessive feeding routine, Debra.
Of course. If they sold you 'bread flour' and it has low mixing tolerance, then you should deal with the miller directly. Any other flour - organic, plain, etc. - from Shipton Mill's range of flours will have seasonal variations in mixing tolerance.
Low mixing tolerance is to be expected if you add sourdough portion at the very beginning of mixing bread dough with average strength flours.
Normally, one would let the bread dough portion of flour hydrate and autolyse first, then develop it by kneading. At the very end of kneading the sourdough is added.
Shipton no. 4 is a bread/high protein flour, but we'll see if I can sort the problem with the starter using Debra's death-by-food solution before I kick the doors in at Shipton HQ.
In order to exclude flour (and water) as a source of trouble, I would try to knead 2 batches
- plain dough with regular water you would normally use for breadmaking and Shipton no.4, plus a pinch of salt, and
- plain dough with distilled water and Shipton no.4, plus a pinch of salt.
If neither causes problems, i.e. dough behaves well during kneading, doesn't disintegrate into a sticky glue after 90 sec of kneading... then your flour is OK and it's your starter who is causing dough deterioration indeed.
Use the kneaded test batches to feed your new starter then, they will store perfectly well for a week or so, refrigerated... or to make bread with yeast meanwhile.
I want to clarify that I'm not suggesting killing anything, overfeeding, or "washing." I'm recommending relatively small refreshments frequently --- ideally 3 times per day, but at least 2. That will keep the pH steadier, and in the comfort zone for the more desirable ones to step up and take over. The refreshment rate needs to coordinate with frequency, so that it has enough time to peak, but not enough to collapse. That will move things along as efficiently as possible.