Hello from China - a newbie baker
Greetings everyone
I live in northeastern part of China and have been baking very often over a month.
I found this site by googling `artisan bread tips` and may I just say WOW, what a wonderful forum!!!
There are somebooks I have read and got the most tips from
<New Artisan Bread in 5> <Josery Baker><Tartine Bread><Flour Water Salt Yeast>
Right now, I have my focus on the last 2 and for the FWSY, I have tried all 4 of the recipes with pre-ferment.
BUT I have some serious issues about that 4. poolish and biga mostly
here comes the photos
instead of 12-14 hrs poolish, I made quick poolish 3.5 hrs with warm water(its summer time, the ambient temp is higher)
My baking schedule (during the 1st hr, I s&f every 15 mins from vigorously grab and throw to gently stretch and fold)
after the 1st hr bulk rise in the fridge it went and its taken on 6am in the morning
1st pre-shape (OMG its a nightmare), I floured the surface on the unfloured bench (tartine way) then bench rest 15mins
2nd pre-shape (I had to do it twice cuz no matter how many time I do, they are still really really slack!!!!!!!!!)
shape (the tartine way - s&book fold then grab each side and overlapped with each other - I watched lots of times of tartine videos on youtube)
proof and did the finger tent test (FWSY way)
after 20 mins lid off (any oven spring? a little bit?)
after 25mins off the oven
oven spring??? any???
the crumb
The biggest problem Im facing is the slack slack dough which can not hold its shape when I put the dough on the pan no matter what I tried.
So, guys~please point my into the right direction and ```how can i improve.
thanks~
oh~ the crumb is really elastic and moist.
the crust I like it to be very thin, therefore high temp and less time is what i did
Meanwhile I have my starter going on at the same time as well, its 1 week old, havent started to use it just regular feeding and ```its not really good either, i will post it in a sec
guys~help~
To be more accurate
I use 12% strong flour and had follow the exactly methods on FWSY - 12 - 14 hrs poolish BEFORE,
I noticed it had the tripe-size mark on the side, yet it collapsed and smelled like alcohol.
I tried use fridged cold water, still collapsed.
OK, then mix the water salt and yeast then flour, room temp for 2-3 hrs for bulk rise, no problem at all.
Then it came to the shape, OMG well-aerated room temp slack dough truly is a nightmare.
Shape, without pre-shapes cuz the book mentioned none!
Proof, then dumpped into the cast iron pan, it just flew like a river```BEFORE.
That's why I changed the recipe a little bit.
is on the way, just saw this post but I'll have to go. Others that know Tartine will jump in to give their tips and tricks soon. Hang in there. :) Welcome to TFL!
Does your baking pan have a lid?
Mini
Yes, it does have a lid, its a combo cast iron 4 quart pan~
Actually, this is the recipe from <Flour Water Salt Yeast>.
I think the <Tartine Bread> is the most inspiring for me.
Jason1876
Yes, it does have a lid, its a combo cast iron 4 quart pan~
Actually, this is the recipe from <Flour Water Salt Yeast>.
I think the <Tartine Bread> is the most inspiring for me.
Jason1876
Could the super slack dough be the result if doing 4 stretch and folds over one hour instead of 2-3 over the first 90 minutes? Tartine does four over toe hours with a fifth after the third hour and at least another hour of fermenting after that. FSWY is a little different but I don't recsall 4 times in an hour being the way.
One thing I know about FSWY is that after thr folds he wants you to invert the dough so it holds itsmshape longer, which int turn will slow down how fast the dough looks ready to be folded again.
ni hao = <nee hau>=hello=你好~
I actually used the FWSY recipe - white bread with poolish
I used to follow the recipe exactly by the temperature and the time, but the dough is really slack, so I thought ' um...maybe the dough needs more strength by increasing the S&F`
yes, I did the invert thing, it did hold and after 4 folds it did feel really smooth~
Jason1876
"My baking schedule (during the 1st hr, I s&f every 15 mins from vigorously grab and throw to gently stretch and fold)"
By reading this I wonder if you mistaken the Stretch & Fold for the * Slap and Fold *
If that is the case you will not get enough gluten at all doing ONLY those 3 * Slap and Fold * .
Stretch and fold is quite different.
You need to do a lot of Slap and folds to get the soft and elastic dough that will hold its shape.
Also , wenn you shaped your dough before you put it in the basket, did you do a tension pulls while you where shaping to make sure the skin of the Boule is tight?
What hydration was your dough?
Hello Petra
i think i did the stretch and fold correctly (hopefully), i dipped my hand in a bowl of water, shook the excess water and vigorously stretched a side of the dough up high and folded into the opposite side, and then the other side. i learned from Ken Forkish demonstration video - www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQHuWDEo3SA
there were 4 s&f in each turn and i did 4 turns every 15 mins.
yes~i did pre-shape and shape my dough. I learned 3 ways to get the job done.
1 is really common by using both hands (pinkies side down) and gently turning the dough to seal the seam side.
2 is more like what u have mentioned - the tension pulls - I think this is the video -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPdedk9gJLQ
3 is my personally favorite by using a bench knife to do the pre-shape, I picked it up from a Tartine video - starts at 2:07- www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn6Vir93bp0
the hydration is 75%
poolish - 500g flour - 500g water - 0.4g yeast
final dough - 500g flour - 250g water - 21g salt - 3g yeast
flour in N China is low in gluten and protein. Bread flour should be around 12.5% protein. Without enough gluten, it is difficult to get the dough to shape properly.
Welcome from Arizona
Hello Brown~lol
I actually think that the quality and protein content of FLOUR is the more important thing!!!
I found the labeled bread flour which has 14% protein, it would be nice for making bread but... the FWSY calls for AP flour, so in my mind there is a voice saying ' if the flour is low in protein and lack of strength, well then use ur hand to give the strength.
Also in China, there are tons of different stretch noodles - ramen, which all calls for AP flour, I mean think 50 or 100 years ago, the noodle existed (so did the artisan bread as well~), there would be nowhere to find the strong flour - high gluten flour - bread flour by that time, yet they made the noodle and the bread~.
I could be wrong, but I think fresh or just milled flour has more ability to absorb water than the supermarket-stored flour. the freshness is the key for gluten development, i think~
Jason1876
yep has a lid. Caught that this time. The dough in the draped banneton doesn't look upside down or seam side up. by flipping it out, the seam then becomes the bottom of the loaf. Alcohol aromas sound a little over-proofed. Might want to shorten the 10hr poolish time to 8hrs.
A few years back when I was in China, the local flour gave me a lot of hassle. I found it helped to add an egg white into the liquids (and count as water) might want to try that sometime... one egg white to 500g flour... roughly. :)
Hello MO
the seam side up or down can be flexible I think, i did that mainly just because I wanted to try to seal the seam side by place it on the bottom.
I think it mainly related to personal signature or bakery mark/score kinda thing.
Ken Forkish likes to do the seam side down/ smooth side up in the basket, so once its loaded in the pot, seam side becomes the top of the bread and because the seam has natural cracks (its seamed~), so the bread doesnt really need any scores, naturally rips and cracks will pop up open. (he carried a 3 kilo / 6.6 pound bread to the farm and pics showed in his website,huh~I think he likes natural things~)
While Chad Robertson has this unique shaping technique, I could be wrong but the way he shapes the bread by stretching and folding sides of a book-fold dough really give the maximum tension and leave a deep folded line on the seam side. so, once its scored, the inside will pop open real big and I think it kind of works like the fendue~
Yes!!! I do think if the pre-ferment is over proofed (slack~), it will affect the final dough, I think maybe because the pre-ferment is very active and hungry, they will soon eat up all the protein in the final dough with over-loaded Co2.(my mind is very weird~)
the egg white thing~lol~I will definitely try it~ (begin to wonder why it works~) and I will let you know how it goes~