March 28, 2014 - 4:09am
Bosch MUM professional/home
Just chanced upon this video on YouTube of the Bosch MUM 8 professional 1400 Watt in action.
Am quite impressed with its power, but in the video it seemed the dough never quite formed a ball. Don't understand German; perhaps the point here was to create an artisan style, high-hydration dough? Seemed rather a long time to work it, for a Bosch, especially at that high speed.
Anybody here familiar with that machine, or have the gist of what the narrator was demonstrating?
Thanks.
Edit: See where the latest offering is 1600 Watt on the Professional, although of course it has never been available in NA.
Here's more we can't get in the States, AFAIK:
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That is definitely a high hydration dough. I find it odd that they chose that as an example. The higher the hydration, the less strain there is on the motor. :/
I have a 1000 watt Cuisinart stand mixer with a 7 qt. bowl that cannot handle much more dough of the same hydration as I could with my 350 watt 4 qt KitchenAid. A lot of what the mixer can handle depends greatly on the quality of the gearbox.
It should be noted for comparison that a 20 qt Hobart mixer only has a 1/2 HP (372.85 watt) motor.
available in the USA, though I did find a reference to it in a cached page from PHG where they said that Bosch ultimately decided not to release it here, in favor of "the stronger Universal Plus." Say WHAT?! The only Bosch products available in NA are their bottom of the line, and don't come with all the accessories they include for distribution around the rest of the world. Probably could not stand the markup from the middlemen here. BTW I take it your new old Bosch Universal arrived? How is it?
MarkS, yeah that sure is one heck of a high hydration dough. But I think the guy was just demonstrating how to make that kind of bread using a mixer, and wasn't really trying to show off the Bosch — doesn't seem to be a representative/distributor. Anyway, found it interesting because I just got a replacement Braun K 3210, and wonder whether it could pull off the same kind of trick as that Bosch. With its European style dough kneader, the Braun seems to need to get the mass into a ball in order to work it. Don't know if it would ever fully develop a such a moist dough the way the Bosch did with the speedy planetary action of its J hook. Guess that will be my next experiment with the K 3210!
Chris, sorry to hear things are not going well. I have never seen the SS bowl in person, but read it was the cat's meow. With the plastic bowl on my UM-3 you had to be careful about how you load the ingredients, if it is too dry on the outside of the dough it would just slide around without being kneaded. When that happened I would dribble a few drops of water in the bowl and the dough would start to catch and begin kneading. This video is pretty good - though I usually used a lot less dough, so it was easier to see it being stretched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fod_ClAGhk
This video shows what you are talking about, it goes for a ride, but every now and again, it sticks and gets kneaded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kC-xmw9Jqj8
"While it does look like it's just spinning it around it is a little more difficult to see that it is also stretching and folding it into itself."
Think that action might be similar to what my Braun K3210 does, even though its European dough hook and center column differ radically from the bottom up design of that SS Bosch Universal. If you look at the base of the prong on which the dough is riding, you will notice it "swanning," or forming a neck that keeps twisting around, as the ball turns in on itself. Difference is on the Braun, the swan radiates from the top of the spindle, and gets pressed against the lid, rather than the base of the bowl as with the Bosch.
Forming the Swan
Chris, I wouldn't throw it away, some people love it http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27653.msg283979#msg283979. It may be that the volume and hydration you are using isn't ideal for that combination of SS and bottom hooks.
about throwing the SS bowl and hook into the garbage, but as a reminder, it could fetch $99.99 on eBay. So you'd still come out even or maybe a liitle ahead, trading up to that set from FYK.
Why sell only the bowl and not the hook that works with it, Chris? Because AFAIK, any Universal bowl you might want to purchase to replace it would come with its own hook, they don't seem to be sold by themselves.
Hiltler's Revenge might be fine for large batches; anyway am guessing the problem you experienced had more to do with the hook.
Will be interesting to see how the small bowl and paddle from FYK work out.
Chris, it occurs to me that the positive reviews I saw on the SS bowl were on a pizzamaking site. Most people making pizza go for pretty long ferments - often 1 to 3 days, so they don't want window pane from their mixer, they get the gluten development from time. What it shined at was mixing small amounts, which would just get wrapped around the central column of the regular bowl in the UM3.
Barry, would that same problem of the dough wrapping around the central column still occur with the European style dough kneader attachment, such as what originally came with your Concept? The Braun K3210 employs an almost identical piece (must have been cross-licensed), and I don't recall ever having experienced the wrap-around problem with it, least of all with small batches. So, thinking the most likely culprit would be the broad arm of the standard/American Bosch hook? Understand it's been a while since you've used that machine but what differences did you find between the two kneading attachments — taking it you had/have both? Thanks!
Found your review again of all those Bosches.
Will repost link below for Chris.
Thanks again for the juicy details, very helpful!
with the stainless bowl and bottom mounted dough hook for years with great success.I would agree if the complaint was regarding the top mount dough hook but I have made 100's of great loves with the setup without a problem.My hydration varies from 55 to 80 and while probably better suited with the lower it works perfectly for me. Post your recipe and a point by point of what you are doing....210g at 65% hydration?? seems awfully small?
you complained about the Kitchenaid as well. A mixer that regular people have been making bread with since 1937 with the only real complaint being durability...you find fault with. The Bosch which has worldwide fans for its ability to work large volumes of dough into wonderful bread you find fault with in your 346 gram experiment. Make bread not noise!
I really think the modern bowls should have some texture or speed bumps. That suggestion is from a thread where we talked about and demo'd an antique handcrank bread mixer. There were 3-4 small lines/updents/speed bumps in the bottom of the dough bucket that would be perpendicular to the travel of the dough. They acted as bumps that caused the dough to "trip" over it and get caught long enough that the hook pulled on the dough and stretched it before pulling it to the next speed bump. It also helped if there was an optimal amount of flour used for the size of the bucket (about 8 -9 cups minimum for that particular bucket). It produced a beautifully textured loaf when it had the correct amount of dough.
complete. I am assuming you have made bread successfully with this so....What is the hydration of the starter...weight of starter added...mix times...rise times 1st and second..bake time and temp. Internal temp.Thanks
Chris, As I said, sorry to hear that it isn't working out for you. I don't think it ever occured to me the difference in gluten requirement at the kneading stage between bread and pizza until I read your posts. When I started going full bore into bread and pizza a few years ago, I thought machine kneading was required to develop gluten to a window pane. While kneading can do that, you can also get gluten development without kneading with a machine - from as little as No Knead Bread ( which usually has a long fermentation times) to the stretch and fold method. Have you read Hammelman bread - he has a recipe for baguette de tradition that involves 3 sets of Stretch and folds in 20 minute intervals, and at the end, the dough looks like it has been thoroughly kneaded by a machine. Again, most of the pizza fans are using an overnight ferment, if not 2 or 3 days, so they get plenty of gluten development after they finish. Here is a one of my favorite recipes - he says Dough should be somewhere between cottage cheese-y and smooth. (Window paning is too far). he gets the rest of the gluten development by 2 days of bulk fermentation.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13827.msg138896#msg13889s .
The reason I wanted to point this out is that most reviews of the small mixing bowl and the SS bowl with the hooks at the bottom are from people making pizza, and it may not cross over entirely to a situation where you want a window pane at the kneading stage.
Here is a review of the small bowl attachment, again it is for pizza, so not sure you will get window paning.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23760.msg245250#msg245250
BTW, for anyone who is reading this and considering the UM3 ( Bosch Universal - not the Universal Plus) I used the UM3 for while, and within certain limits it did a great job, though as many have found with small amounts of dough ( 250 grams of flour would count as small ) it had some issues, and also with very high hydration ( Jason's Ciabatta ) was not a strong point. The Concept was an advance, IMHO, because the European dough hooks would limit the problem with small doughs wrapping around the center column and could handle high hydration much better, though not trouble free. With Jason's recipe ( using 100 % whole wheat ) the Concept would develop plenty of gluten, but it got so developed it would climb under the European hooks and ride up on the inside of the hook assembly if you didn't watch it carefully. As Andy has pointed out I did a pretty controlled test of the UM3, Compact, and the Concept of small dough. I should repeat it for the DLX - Magic Mill Assistent, but haven't got around to it yet.
you will not. Peace