July 16, 2013 - 2:57pm
Seeded Rye with Wheat Berries and Spelt
I have been craving this type of loaf since my last Swedish Rye bake about 4 months ago. I miss the dense, seed and grain packed bread that, when sliced very thin, provides the perfect bed for open face sandwiches.
I used a Danish Rye formula to start from but made some additions and adjustments. One being the use of whole wheat berries, boiled then roughly chopped. Thanks goes to Dabrownman for his coaching on the scald.
The only downside to these breads is the 2-3 day wait for the crumb to set up and flavours to develop.
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Comments
... bread I luuuuuuuuuuv!!!! Wonderful look, all around!!! Must taste incredible!!!
By the way, how different is spelt from whole wheat? I don`t think spelt is available in the region I live. Can whole wheat substitute for spelt? If so, what adaptations have to be made?
Thaks a lot. Take care!
Thanks, and yes, it is one of my favourites for sure. I am not an expert in spelt, but as far as I am aware, spelt has a nice mellow sweet flavour. Whole wheat should be a good substitute with no adjustments to formula necessary.
Happy baking!
John
when I said when we can't find Pumpernickel berries we have to cut Pumperdime berries in half :-) No need to chop scalded berries. They are already upset enough at you for boiling them! Poor things......This is the kind of bread you want to put some kind of smoked meat on with some mustard and see if you can eat yourself to death.
What a great bread! Nicely done and the photos do it justice too. So what other stuff did you add in there to go with the WW scald?
Happy baking John
I don't know why, but I am trying to recreate that unique texture that rye meal gives. Since I can not find rye meal or chops, I keep trying this chopping up method, however it doesn't quite get them ground up enough.
I also added flax and sunflower seeds. Rye, spelt and bread flours. Only 12g honey/molasses per loaf. Rye sour. Instant yeast. Salt That's about it.
Thanks for the help in the scald man. The hydration I think came out perfectly without deducting or adding any to the formula.
John
I start grinding 75 g of rye berries in my coffee grinder - in about 15 seconds i have rye chops., If I keep grinding on them for another 20 seconds or so I have rye meal. Both can be soaked overwrought. No sense buying them. Now that you are hooked on scalds all we need is to give you a gentle nudge to sprouts :-)
Be very gentle man. I am frightened by those little freak shows sprouting.
When you grind them in your coffee grinder do you grind them pre-boiled or post-boiled? I tried grinding up dry berries in my Magic Bullet and it only crushed a few and the rest stayed the same, with some flour dust produced.
John
blender like the 'no magic' won't do the job when it comes to grain grinding but a $20 Krups coffee grinder is the ticket. I burned one up when I didn't stop grinding when it got hot but hey, I got 2 of them as wedding presents 25 years ago... I grind them dry. If they are wet you won't get the size and texture you want and they just gum everything up..
Hi John,
This is a really pretty loaf. Looks delicious too. Very nice crumb and overall shape which is hard to get in a loaf with HL.
Your photos are really nice too *- }
Thanks for the post.
Take Care,
Janet
Hi Janet.
Thank you so much! Since I am after all things pretty, I guess it's a win win :)
Last time I made this loaf I screwed up the hydration and they sank in the middle horribly. Here's to never making that mistake again.
John
John,
I really like your dense Swedish rye loaves. They look very good and I'll bet they taste great. I occasionally use spelt flour, about 30% with bread flour, which makes a nice loaf of bread with a tan colored crumb. I can get spelt at the natural food store here in 5 lb. bags. Spelt imparts a terrific flavor and nice color to a loaf.
BruneskI was asking about the origin of spelt. It's an ancient cousin to wheat and very nutricious. An amazing grain. Here's a link:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=143
Howard
Thank you Howard. Yes, I am a big fan of spelt as well. In this loaf it really brings out the sweetness naturally. Since I do not like using molasses in my breads in high amounts, spelt flour does a good job at balancing the rye. We are fortunate here in Canada to be one of the growers of spelt so we can find it in abundance and cheap.
I appreciate the comments. So far the one slice I had tastes just as I wanted it to.
Happy baking.
John
Very nice of you indeed!
Have a great week!
Hi John,
Really nice looking loaves you've made, and can just imagine the flavour they must have. Rye meal or chops shouldn't be too elusive in the GVRD area and fairly sure that Galloway's in Richmond carries them.These beautys don't look like they're suffering for any lack of grains however, rye or otherwise. Great stuff John!
Franko
Hi Franko and thanks a lot for your comments. I had never heard of Galloway's so I will definitely check them out! Thank you so much for that.
Happy baking.
John
Hi John,
Great looking rye bread ... what's going on top?
Lots of butter I hope!
Cheers,
Phil
Hi Phil.
You were the one that originally got me interested in these types of loaves with your Danish Rye post. So thank you for that.
I would LOVE a pound of butter on each slice, however, I need to watch my girlish figure. How else am I to fit in my Speedos?
Thanks a lot. Now I am heading for the fridge for some bread and butter!
John
... would you mind pm-ing me the formula and method?
Thanks a lot! Best regards!
See below Bruneski. Thank you for your comments. Good luck with this loaf. Important is to have your sourdough starter ready and active.
John
... of you, John!!! As always!!!
I'll have to decide about the rye starter. Still don`t have one. Would a Joe Ortiz starter do the job?
Have a great day tomorrow!
starter with my rye sour one and you can convert part of Ortiz starter to a rye sour with some rye flour, water and some minced fine white onion (optional) - about a tablespoon.
Just take10g of your starter and feed it 10 g each of rye adn water. Wait 4 hours and feed it 20 g each of rye flour and water. 4 hours later feed it 40 g each of rye flour and water, When it rises 25% put it in the fridge for at least 2 days and then take it out and let it finish rising to double Then it it is ready for any rye. Just feed it if you need to to get to the right hydration and amount for the bread.
... starting with only 10 g of a Joe Ortiz wheat starter, I would end up with 150 g of a rye starter. This process would take at least 2 days and 8 hours, not including the 2 rising periods.
Is this correct, dabrownman?
Given that the recipe John so gently gave us calls for 77 g of a rye starter, would I only need to use 77 g of the rye starter that resulted from the process above?
Thanks, dabrownman. Best wishes!
You could use half to make a loaf of rye and the other half to keep a rye sour starter going if you want - I highly recommend adding some onion too. Or, you could make a double batch of rye using all of it and then pumpernickel one loaf so you can see the huge difference in taste it makes to bake rye low and slow in its own juices.
Your call.
... is my call, dabrownman!!!
I'll certainly try it!!!
Take care.
Bruneski. I would go with dabrownman's suggestion when it comes to this topic as I do not know a thing about it. Isn't Joe Ortiz a fighter? :)
Good luck.
John
... a slugger ... who plays for the Red Sox, right? ;-p
Your loaves look delicious. May I have your formula, too? I just got myself some wheat berries and pearl barley. I would love to bake this bread this weekend.
Cheers,
Annie
Hi Annie.
See below for the formula. I hope it works out for you. Thank you so much for the comments!
John
hi John, beautiful packed yet open crumb. love the earthy color of the grains in the crumb.. looks like a marbling art.
very nice indeed.. well enjoy your bread!!
i enjoyed your post. thanks for sharing
evon
Hi Evon. I knew you would appreciate this one. Marbling art? Wow, I never would have thought of that. I appreciate your comments and glad you liked it.
Take care.
John
Those are truly handsome loaves, John! I see flax seeds too? Lovely even crumb, and a nice contrasting crust color. So nice to see and eat.
Great efforts my friend.
-Khalid
Hi Khalid. Handsome loaves? Thank you so much. They are surely feeling better about themselves after that comment. I think you should be attempting one of these soon. I would love to see what you come up with to further inspire me.
John
to ask for the formula as well. Looks terrific. -Varda
Hi Varda.
Thank you, and I know this is your kind of bread. You will like it and is fairly simple to make - no kneading, extensive mixing like a Danish Rye.
See below for formula.
John
SWEDISH SEED RYE - VARIATION #1
Yields 2 loaves
Rye Sour
186g Whole rye flour
309g Water
77g Rye starter
Soaker
501g Water
342g Whole rye/wheat berries, scalded
93g Sunflower seeds
29g Flax seeds
Final Dough
309g Bread flour
155g Spelt flour
27g Water
23g Salt
5g Instant yeast
30g Molasses/honey
572g Rye sour (all of rye sour)
965g Soaker (all of soaker)
For rye sour, mix water and starter together and stir to distribute. Add rye flour and stir to evenly combine. Cover and ferment for 8 hours until doubled (60 - 65F).
For soaker, first scald the berries, drain, pat dry, then refrigerate to further dry out. Optional: at this point, berries can be ground up in food processor. Combine cold water berries and seeds, cover, soak for 8 hours.
For final dough, add all ingredients into a large bowl and stir until evenly combined and hydrated.
Divide dough mixture into two pans that have been greased and lined with flour. The dough should be approx. 5cm from top of the pan. Dust the tops of dough with rye flour, cover pans with plastic wrap and refrigerate for 8-10 hours.
Remove pans from fridge and proof for 1 hour and 30 mins at 80F or until dough has risen approx. 2cm. Preheat oven to 500F. Remove the plastic wrap, dust tops with more rye flour and dock the dough. Bake with steam for 15 minutes at 500F. Remove steam and reduce heat to 400F. Bake for 35 minutes. Remove bread from pans, place back in oven and bake for 10 more minutes. Total bake time = 1 hour, or until internal temperature reaches 206F.
Cool loaves, wrap in linen and let rest for 24-36 hours before slicing.
Hi John,
Thanks for posting the formula. Looks like a snap to make - stir and store :)
In going over the ingredients I have a question about the salt. You listed it at 23g which comes out to 3.5% which seems high. Is it supposed to be 13g instead? That would equal 2% which is what I am more used to seeing in bread formulas.
If it is indeed 3.5% I have to ask why so high? Flavor or for production purposes???
This has just been added to my 'to bake' list and I wanna make sure I have it right *- )
Thanks again for posting.
Take Care,
Janet
Hi Janet. You are very welcome. The 23g is correct. It may seem high on paper but I can say that when eating it, I do not taste salt at all. Actually, when I am impatient sometimes and don't wait the 2 days before slicing, the bread tastes a bit on the salty side, but then magically after the 2 days waiting, it mellows out to a perfect balance. The dominant palate flavour is sweet if anything. I simply worked off a formula I have had for a while now, and never tweaked the salt. I am sure you understand how salt % works in bread better than I do so maybe go with your % and see if it turns out ok. If it does, let me know, as I don't mind taking some sodium out of my diet. I am a salt fiend when it comes to cooking so, the less in my breads the better.
John
less than 2% salt for all breads. We eat 3 times more salt than we should and 75% of the reason why is bread. I have found 1.5 to 1.75% is plenty of salt. Rye won;t run away from you at that level of salt so no worries and you won't be able to tell the difference other than it is no longer salty as all get out :-)
Thanks for the reply John. I will probably drop the salt down to 2% since your higher % isn't there for 'practical' production reasons. Rarely do I go higher but do go lower in loaves that contain a high sugar content.
I have a Finnish Rye rising in my refrig. this evening so it will be fun to do a Swedish one in the near future too. Recipes are very similar though the Swedish one I am working on uses a ww leaven and the only seeds in it are flax. (It is a recipe out of Maggie Glezer's book that I have baked before and people did like it due to the moistness and nice rye flavor.) Think I will use your idea of flouring the bread pans. I really liked how it made your loaves look.
Take Care,
Janet
Hi John,
Well, 4 months later and this loaf finally got baked! I did put it on my 'to bake' list but summer happened and I tend not to bake these heavier breads in the summer…
Fall arrived and Karin tempted us into her challenge with her multigrain bake and, once I jumped into that one it lead me into Borodinsky and Moscow rye bakes….I wanted to nail down those 2 formulas so I could have them as 'bases'…
Long story short - today your formula was finally baked and all the loaves I did in the fall helped tremendously with mixing technique and bake temps. and times.
I was very happy with the results. No crumb shots as both the large and small loaf were given to neighbors.
This formula now has a file of it's own in my Rye Binder and I am already counting the ways it can be tweaked…
Thanks for the inspiration!
Take Care,
Janet
Hey Janet! Sorry I missed this post but for some reason it didn't appear at the front of recent posts list. Shouldn't it do that? I just stumbled on it indexing through back dates.
Anyway, glad you tried it out and that it turned out! Next time provide crumb photos! Gotta keep a loaf for yourself too ya know! :)
John
with a beautiful "seedy" crumb. Spelt tastes a bit nuttier than wheat, it's used a lot in German breads, and I almost prefer it to wheat.
DBM is risking his coffee grinder. I did the same thing, it worked great, until the grinder broke because of too heavy duty use. Rye berries are especially hard, and if you try to grind them in your food processor you achieve nothing.
I tried all these options, because I didn't want to buy a grain mill, but since I couldn't get coarse grinds of anything else but rye, I ended up buying one.
Great bake, John!
Karin
2nd one breaks I will get a real mill but I guarantee you it won't be a hand cranked $1,000 one. Will probably go with a Nutrimill since i only make 1 loaf of bread a week and even that is overkill :-) Unless you can steer me in a better direction. I can't clamp anything on my granite counters but I have a huge thick cutting board I can attach a cheap had crank one if that fits my needs better,
$1000.00 to hand crank whole grains?? Sounds about right to me :)
We just bought our first coffee grinder after loving the freshly ground coffee's every morning in Mesa. Funny I never realized how much of a difference there is in grinding coffee beans fresh compared to pre-ground coffee. What a pathetic excuse of an ex-bartender I am!
All good things seem to lead to AZ.
John
grinding your on coffee, you have chosen wisely, .don't make the mistake I made for years in not using enough coffee for a great brew. What ever your coffee maker calls for to make 10 cups add 2 T more and see what a difference it makes. I thought I was making great coffee and then I found out it was only slightly better than crap. Now the old crap can't compare.
Next time you come to AZ you can come over and we will make some bread to tide you ove, and I can sic my apprentice on you for some ankle biting as mine are getting pretty thin :-) The girls can go shopping or lunching or something we don't want to do. Instead of making bread, maybe we will make beer!
Sounds fantastic man. Shopping is about the last thing I would ever want to do in AZ. I have to say though, I loved shopping for groceries there. The cool inside, all that food. And new exciting packaged foods! We never have any packaged foods in the house, except if you want to call frozen peas and corn packaged. I couldn't believe how BIG the frozen packaged aisles were there! They go on for miles and miles. Not a good thing I guess, but I was like a kid in a candy store. The other craziness was the gas stations. Their...I don't know what to call them...'hot dog etc.' stations? were so massive. There's a gas station on the way to Superstition Mountains, I think on Idaho Rd....the last big gas station on the way there...it has the most ridiculous junk food spread! Five of anything and everything. Anyway...went on a rant there.
If you promise one of your dabrowny fruit/veg/bread spreads, then I'm in!
John
Thank you Karin. I am really liking spelt myself. I am trying to use it more and more. I actually have graduated to only making spelt pancakes now instead of the traditional all purpose flour ones.
I have some German in me too, so it must be the rye and whole grains in my blood.
John
I bought one, Wonder Mill Junior, for $170. At that time I still thought I could get away with not buying a more expensive electric mill. Boy, did I overrate my biceps! It works great for coarser grinds, but milling flour is a pain (it doesn't overheat, though). I finally jumped on a special offer and bought an electric Nutrimill.
Spending 1000 bucks on a grain mill - no way!
Karin
the Bosch dealer en she said the nutrimill never goes on sale. I said was on sale now at $40 off and she said - not really it just looks like it is on sale, When the sale sign isn't up we replace the price with one that is $40 less so it is alway's the same price.
I think for one loaf of bread a week, a hand crank might be tight up my alley - what do you think?.
That's very possible, of course. The allure of the deal. But I'm very happy with the Nutrimill. I use it mainly for grinding specialty flours, like kamut, spelt, barley or farro, that I use in breads I sell, but not in large amounts. Organic rye, wheat, bread flours etc. I go through fast, so I buy them per 50 lb bags.
Grinding grain berries to fine flour takes really forever in a hand-cranked mill, you have to go from coarser to finer grinds several times, if you want to grind 1 kg of flour, you will probably spend half a day at the mill - and get a tennis arm, most likely.
Karin
Nice looking loaf and photos John...I'm here in beautiful Costa Rica by the pool drinking a Dirty Monkey while I type this....just thought I would rub that in a bit...
Cheers
Ian
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