how can i have a nice and smooth surface for my hamburger buns
Hi fellow bakers
I am writing to you as need a good advice. I am trying to make hamburger buns for my cafe, but the buns I finnaly get are very strange. the surface is cracking. below I will introduce some of the pics I took from my failure. and a pic what I would like to receive. also the introduction how I made my buns.
this is what I would like to bake.
this is what i baked
I used 1kg flour
25g salt
130g sugar
12g yeast
25g butter
50g milk
5g of bread improver
I mix water and flouer, for 5 mins, then leave it for 40 mins at room temp 23-24c.
then i add the prefermented yeast(water 30c+yeast+little sugar, mix it till it is all as a single mixture for 5 minutes) and the rest ingridients to the dough, mix at the speed1 for 10 minutes and then at the 2nd till I have the ready dough(usually I do the window test with piece of dough).
then i size and shape them, put in a mold, and put into a proofer for 30-40 mins at a temp 30c with high humidity.
when i have the perfect size, I put it into my convi oven, with a starting degree 190c and lot of steem. then i reduce the steam when it starts changeing the color, and get the temp up to 25-210c.
whean they are ready i take them out remove from the mold and let them cool, when they are cool enough i put them into a plastic bag and keep for use.
the tast, shape, softness, elasticity, size and color is great, but the surface is cracking. please give me any advice how to prevent the cracks. i tryed adding egg mixture before baking but I dont like this eggy thing. need any advice without it.
please help
turned out so well with only 55g of liquid in the mix. Thdre must be some water missing?
sorry missed the water part. I added 0,62l of water temp
exactly and which bread improver? and while you're at it the details on the milk. :) The more info, the easier it is for us.
Would be good to know the amount of water.
hi, I use Pakmaya eka dinamo improver http://www.chemkind.com/chemicals-p_2258563_eka-dinamo-bread-improver.htm
hmmm milk I dont remember the usual milk from supermarket.
flour I dont think it will give you any hint as in the country I am living we have local flour, and the best is called "super" though sometimes it is not so super as expected.
does the package list amounts of protein, fat, carbohydrates, fibre, and sodium?
Have you tried using a paper bag as compared to a plastic one? Many times the buns are not completely cool and moisture still rising from the inside of the bun will soften the crust causing it to wrinkle, crust expansion as the bun shrinks.
you mean on the pakage of the flour? I have never put any attantion as in my country I would not rely on these info(it can differ from what is inside).
did not get the idea with the paper bag, could you please give more info?? thanks for support)))
Hi,
Typically a soft roll/sweet bun dough doesn't need a full proof nor a lot of steam. Because of the relatively high fat content of this type of dough, it will expand easily given adequate mixing and hydration, so you want to proof it a bit less than you would for a lean dough. Steam can be used for sweet bun doughs, but if the dough is soft, as it should be, minimal or no steam is needed.The wrinkles in the top are a clear indication of the dough expanding past the point of supporting a uniform crust and show that it has actually collapsed back on itself. This isn't an ingredient or formula problem, just process. Play around with lowering proofing times, feel the product often during final proof to acquire a tactile reference point and make adjustments accordingly. You're so close to what you want now, it's just a step or two away.
By the way, kudos to you for making your own product (hamburger buns) for your customers instead of doing it the easy way that most cafes take in buying commercial/industrial bread products to serve.
Best wishes,
Franko
hi Franko
Thanks for advice, actually the fact that i proofed them so much is the following:
my cafe is next to a univercity so a lot of young fellows and girls come for a break or so.. I tryed to combine healthy plus easy going product. Home made burgers, so if they love burgers better to eat real ingridents with a affordable price rather than the macdonalds soya burger.
So I started the programm and now I am selling at least 1000 burgers a day. Till now I was using the commercial buns, which have nice and smooth look, with 12cm diametre and 3 cm of hight and 82g of weight.
SO I surfed the web and could onnly find moulds for the burger buns maximum 107mm(10,7cm) which in fact is smaller than the ones I sell. So I am afraid if I proff them less there will be suficent size difference and the youngsters will start going to my neighbour who copy pastes all what I do.
So I try to get maximum size effect with proofing. please adivese if the dougb ball is already covered the mould, should I put it in the oven with little steam and 210c heat, will it get the needed size?
by the way, Could you give a description about why I get the cracks in a more comprehencive way as I am not so good at baker's terminology.
thanks
p.s. thanks for the kind words
Hi Hactux,
Both sugar and fat can interfere with gluten development during mixing, causing the dough to be weaker than a standard lean dough. With a full proof your dough is extended in a weakened state, then when it hits the hot oven it's forced to extend even further, consequently falling back on itself as it cools which in turn show up in the crust as wrinkles or rough spots. In the worst cases the baked item will have some blisters and holes on the crust, not a good look. Excessive steam can make the problem even worse as it allows the dough to expand more readily, compounding the problem. Ample steam for a lean, well mixed dough is essential for good volume and a healthy crust, but a little bit goes a long way when it comes to enriched doughs such as yours. When you're mixing the dough instead of adding the sugar at the start of the mix hold it back until the dough has reached a well developed stage and then add the sugar gradually. Sugar absorbs a lot of water which is needed in the early stages of the mix to form gluten and give your dough strength. Adding the sugar at a later stage in the mix ensures that this is possible and results in a stronger, better developed dough that will give you better results in the finished product. What weight are you scaling the buns at if I may ask? You mention the commercial product you used previously had a baked weight of 85 grams, so if this is the size you want for your own product I'd suggest scaling yours at 96-98 grams per to achieve a similar final/baked weight, and which will also help fill the molds without having to proof excessively to get the size that you need. Hope this helps and let us know how you make out, and don't hesitate to ask for more info if you need it.
All the best,
Franko
Hi Franko
thanks for the advice.
so as i got you, after i mix water and flour, and later on when mixed and flour absorbed enough water I add the rest ingridients(improover, salt, yeast"sponge", butter, milk... ) mix it all and when the dough starts to show some changes ( using the window method i check the dough) I add the sugar(reduced in quantities, mixed with little water) as soon as I have the needed dough, i cut/shape it and put in a proofer for less time, as soon as I see it hase rised like 65-75%(is it enough or should I try less??). As for oven I am using convectional, but I have invested in a routary oven, and soon I will get it installed. so I put it in a oven(210c) and add little steam, as soon as the buns have risen I will switch off the steam and bake only.
I will come back with the results))
b.t.w. I have been doing a very interesting research. luckyly in my country we ignored mcdonalds and we eat more or less healthier food. But as we all love burgers, there are lots of burger shops where you can try burger from fresh home grown products. And what I found more that all these burger shops are buying almost the same commercial production of locar bakeries wich are not so good (based on the opinions of the consuers and the selles) so I am now calculating the idea of starting a small biz b2b for m making the best buns in my city
hope you all will help me to master my skills in bakery for selling the best buns))
Franko is saying that because the rolls are fully proofed, they shrink more when cooling.
Try baking some rolls that are not fully risen and let the heat in the oven finish the rise. It is called oven spring and can be a bigger rise than what you are now getting.
Start out shortening the final rise in the proofer and see if that helps.
Hi hactux,
Franko makes all the important points, but I would add something else to back it up.
There is little point in autolyse, although I understand what you might be hoping to achieve.
But, I would suggest you think of water absorption as a competition. Salt, sugar and starch in the flour are competing for water. Salt takes up the most, but you have very little salt content, obviously. Sugar takes up loads of water as Franko writes, and it will win hands down against carbohydrate. If anything, I would dissolve the sugar in the water first, and leave that to stand a few minutes. That way, the sugar gets the water it needs first, before you come to mix the final dough.
Also, convection ovens tend to pull the dough up in the early baking phase, unlke conduction where the lift is from the bottom. This is important as it does have a bearing on the end result which you have here. I'm not saying you can't make a decent roll with a convection oven, but it is definitely more challenging than it is if you have a deck oven on hand.
Being honest, your formula is questionable in my eyes. Too much sugar, and not enough fat. 13% sugar on flour? You could easily half that. That's where your problem is with the wrinkling. But if you do cut down on sugar, you will also need to look at the water content at the same time.
Best wishes
Andy
Hi hactux,
You can add your flour, water, salt and yeast all at the same time then mix it till it has developed and has some strength, then add your fat/butter and mix till it's incorporated fully, then add your sugar (or sugar water as Andy suggests) and continue mixing till your dough is smooth,soft and fully developed. As for proofing 75% would be a good place to start but you will need to experiment a bit, taking note of times and temperature. Most importantly though is to touch the dough often throughout the final rise to get a sense of how it feels as it rises. You want a certain amount of surface tension in the dough wherein it holds a slight indentation when touched lightly with the pad of your fingertip instead of springing back or even worse, sinking. Just try a few different proofs and see which one delivers the results you want for your product, then as long as you keep your formula and procedure consistent, stick with those proofing times and you should have a consistent final product. As for baking temperature I'd reccomend 185-190C to keep the buns soft and moist and to avoid over coloring them. I wish I could be more specific regarding the proofing stage but it's one of those areas that is easy to show in a one on one situation but difficult to describe properly in text. Hopefully I've been able to give you a good starting point.
Wishing you great success with your business plan and please keep us posted. I am quite sure you won't lack for help on this forum should you need it. Best of luck to you!
Franko
thanks once more for your support.
please also tell me when should I add the improver?
Hi guys,
I´ve been reading your posts about wrinkling, and I also get this problem at my bakery with brioche dough for burguer buns. I´ve tried a lot of stuff, A LOT, but they always end up the same, plus some crack in a really (frightening) uniform way in the oven (convection oven). I tought that it could be some issue with the oven itsel since they crack always the SAME WAY, but the technician came and tested everything, saying there was no issue with the oven (tough I still suspect it), kkkk. I´ll send some photos, but I was actually coming to the same conclusion when I started reading this post (add the sugar and butter after a good development). I´m running some test today, so I´ll put some photos later on.