my new baking stone arrived! the maiden bake.
There we go.
I fired up the oven for one hour and 15 minutes on full blast, only to find out I didn't have the proper gear to check the surface temp properly. So I had to play it by ear.
The first bake was a miche, to see how the stone would affect crust. As a matter of fact I didn't notice anything different in oven spring of the baking bread. After all the warnings, I was very careful with my steaming and have managed to keep it in one piece! The miche díd get a very nice lift at the bottom though, more than on my thin stone, where my miche tends to be a bit "edgy" around the bottom and prone to breaking or tearing.
I do think I underestimated the amount of time it takes to properly heat the stone through and through. The second loaf; a manitoba tortano, a potential high riser did go in at the proper temp. By default this bread already has a very enthusiastic oven spring.
It came out singing like a bird, even though I slightly over proofed. In this bread I could discern a definite positive effect of my new stone on oven spring, crust color and "bottomlift" (a new term imported from the cosmetic industry...)
As I said: it sang proudly! And I like it when my bread sings.
Will I tell every one to run to the store and get this stone? Not really at the price that I paid. And as became overtly clear in this thread, there are way cheaper options out there that are equally good or better, when it comes to thick stones. If you happen to have access to any of the sources mentioned in the thread: run and get yourself a thick stone for a few bucks, it IS worth the trouble!
Here a few more shots to take this story all the way tothe end
Cheers
Freerk
P.S. Take a look at my updated bread gallery.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
My new baking stone arrived today.
So far I have been baking on rather a thin stone (more geared towards pizza I suppose), and this one is 4 cm thick.
I'm curious to see how it will perform.
Any TFL-ers with good tips and pointers?
This stone is made out of grog clay (coarse chamotte or firesand)
greetz
Freerk
P.S. Take a look at my updated bread gallery.
I have learned from a series of mistakes how easy it is to crack a baking stone. Always bring your stone up to baking temperature starting from a cold oven. Always let it cool down to room temperature slowly. Never pore water onto it when it is hot. Unless you have amazingly effective hot pads, never try to move it when it is hot.
Good luck.
These are great ideas. I have one detail I would add on. After you bake, when the stone is cold make sure you get the residual particles off the stone.
:-) That is actually why I decided to get myself a new one: after a caramel apple pie disaster last week I completely forgot to clean the stone (which was already in less than pristine condition), fired up the oven a few days later and wondered why the whole house was smelling of caramel... Getting it clean after that little episode was just impossible. This new baby is going to be treated with a lot of care (it was expensive too! pff)
Hey Rich!
I know! My old one broke in half before I even got it into the oven. It still worked of course, but it was a bit frustrating.
I was amazed that this new stone actually arrived in one piece and without any chips broken off.
The good thing with this thickness is, I won't even be tempted to move it around (as I did with the thinner one, and burnt my fingers on more than one occasion) It will stay where it is. I had it made to fit, so it fits quite snugly.
I'll be careful with water, thank you for warning me about that!
Have a good week
Freerk
That is the thickest baking stone I have ever seen, it should really hold some heat.
I'm really curious to find out how it performs, and if there is any noticable difference with the much thinner pizza stone I used so far. I'll keep you posted if any magic occurs!
Freerk
Be sure to allow plenty of time for it to come to temperature. A stone that thick will take a lot of heat before reaching the desired temp.
Regarding spilt apple pie and other messes: If you have a self cleaning oven, the cycle will clean the stone, too.
cheers,
gary
Yeah, my guess is around 1 hour. It didn't come with any sort of documentation regarding firing it up before baking. Should I? Or is it just pretty much plug and play?
Unfortunately I own an oven that laughs in my face and tells me to get on hands and knees and scrub!
Freerk
Just in case you break your beautiful new stone, you should know that after I broke several stones, I starting using 6" X 6" unglazed refractory tiles. They work just as well and cost no more than $1 each. Sure they get dirty, but at the cost you can throw them away.
wish I would have known about those before I bought this one. I SHOULD have known any way, because there is always a cheaper solution. When and if (knock on wood that it doesn't for a while) this one breaks I will go that road as well. Thanks for the tip!
Just looked at your gallery. Wow! Stunning baked goods. About 30 pictures in there is a rustic looking loaf, rye? What is it?
Jerry
Hey Jerry, thank you for your compliment! I don't really know which loaf you are referring to, but if you toggle the way you view the pictures in my gallery to "mosaic" it gives you all the titles!
I also moved up to a thicker stone from a thin pizza stone, so I can assure you that you will find a huge difference! :) But as you said, probably you'll need 1 hr or so to pre-heat it, though you'll be rewarded for it.
And, not trying to rub more salt in the wound, the second, thick 'baking stone' was unglazed terracotta flooring tile which I paid £1-00 for. (my local flooring shop just happened to have a few tiles left from their previous work) But it was a square one and wasn't long enough for baguettes, so I did invested in new oblong stones, this time from a kiln manufacturer who cut cordierite kiln shelf (no known health hazard, except for dropping on your foot, and very strong against thermal shock. Max temperature over 2000 C!) to fit to my oven. I paid just over £20-00 for two stones, which was much cheaper than the only rectangular baking stone on sale in UK that time. (4-5 year ago)
Hope your new stone will serve you for a very long time, but just in case it doesn't, try look for a kiln manufacturer near you.....though I sincerely hope you won't have to! :)
Best wishes,
lumos
Hey Lumos,
Oh yeah, rub it in, I love it! ;-)
Mine is also cut to fit! It fits so snugly in my oven, I love it!
It was a bit of a splurge, and a matter of immediate gratification, this new baking stone. But sometimes you are entitled to a good splurge I think (within reason of course).
And IF it breaks, I won't be upset 'cause I know where to go to replace it practically for free!
Thanks
Freerk
Definitely! :) Though my family seem to think my 'reason' is not very reasonable....
Best wishes
lumos
I know that feeling, lol!
Hello freerk,
That's quite a gallery - thanks for sharing your photos! - so many beautiful breads and sweets!
I agree with lumos re: the 1-hour preheat for your new stone.
That stone looks like a quality one - I'm sure you will love baking with it!
I use six firebricks (1-1/4" thick) in place of a baking stone now - my older, thinner stone is now on an upper rack,
to provide radiant heat from the top of the oven.
To ease loading bread into the oven, I use parchment paper - side benefit that this also helps to keep the stone clean (sometimes there's melting cheese, etc. when baking). However, this did not help the time I had a disastrously-spreading dough that overflowed the stone and parchment, dripping over the front side of the bricks!
A permanent black mark, now, I'm afraid!
:^) from breadsong
Good, this is something I've been wondering about. I now have 5 baking stones in total (various thickness), of which only one or two are used at a time, but I've been contemplating if I should use one of the rest on the upper shelf to create radiant heat, especially when I bake baguettes which need high heat + relatively short baking time. Does it make a significant difference?
lumos
Hi lumos,
My instructor at SFBI mentioned something about the radiant heat from the top helping to draw the bread upward.
If it helps with oven spring, I was game to try :^)
I do notice good crust color as a result of the radiant top heat.
:^) from breadsong
Thanks, breadsong!
When I was reading this book ('Techniques of Baguette Making' - A collection of baguette formula from Japanese professional bakers), I noticed many of the instructions mentioned controlling 'upper heat' and 'lower heat' in the oven, and I remember reading in another book aaaaaages ago that you can create radient heat by placing a thick baking sheet or baking stone above the bread, but I've never tried myself.
So you notice it affect how the crust is coloured, but what about the oven spring (or 'drawing the bread upward') ? Is it better with stone on top?
lumos
Hi lumos,
To better answer your question, for my next bake, I'd like to try something...
My older, thinner stone actually split into two pieces.
I should remove one half of the upper stone, and bake two loaves side by side, one with upper radiant heat
and one without and see if I can notice a difference.
(I think) the biggest determining factor for oven spring in my loaves is the condition of the dough going into the oven.
I don't always get great oven spring, even with the radiant heat from the top...!
:^) from breadsong
Thank you breadsong!
See later on in the thread for more comments!
Freerk
Hi back, breadsong, ;)
You're always so kind. Thank you. But you know what? I think I should stop relying on other people to solve my problems and start experimenting more myself.
Actually I had one experience baking a loaf with a thick baking sheet above the dough long, long time ago, after reading about the radiant heat from above. Can't remember how it effected the oven-spring but I remember what I got was a burned top. It was a tin loaf which needed much longer baking time than baguettes and was quite tall (and had sugar and butter in it, too). By the end of baking, the top was almost touching the baking sheet and the highest point was almost black! Maybe I chose a wrong sort of bread to use upper sheet/stone technique....
I'll try with baguettes next time I bake it and let you know how it went. ;)
Kind regards,
lumos
P.S.
Sorry, freerk! We're hi-jacking your thread, aren't we. How naughty of us.....! Sincere apology!!
I don't mind you hijacking this thread, as a matter of fact I encourage you to!
The fact of the matter is that I am in the proces of getting a new oven, with... radiant heat from above from a big fat stone. It's a ROFCO oven, and is made in Belgium. I'm not sure, but I think there's been threads on it here on TFL (how would I know about it otherwise, lol) as well.
My intention is to use my broken in half thinner baking stone (yeah Breadsong, we are living in parallel universes I think) to sort of mimic the way that oven operates; you fire it up for about 1 hour, put in the dough, bake for a short time at full temp, and then turn down the heat, and bake on the residual heat from the stones (above and beneath).
I am going to see the ROFCO somewhere end of August, I can even test bake in it!
You might want to give that "turn the heat down" trick a try to prevent your loafs from burning!
Freerk
I can't wait to hear about your Rofco experience. I have been lusting after one for some time now. The only thing holding me back is the hefty shipping fees to the U.S., no U.S. distributor so far.
Hey Asfolks,
Every once in a while being in my location DOES have its advantages; the guy that makes them comes and installs them himself! He's in Belgium, so that's close :-)
I can imagine shipping it all the way to the US would be...pricey!
Freerk
You're getting a Rofco??
Oh my, lucky you! I'm afraid my house is too small, I wouldn't know where to put one, but I dream of them occasionally :).
Hey J,
I'm contemplating getting a ROFCO, and taking my time with it too. So, I'm first going to look at it and bake in it before I'll make any decisions. I still have this one spot in my kitchen, where, with some adjustments, I could actually hang it on the wall on eye level!
freerk
For some reason I always imagine you living in an ancient grachtenpand - surely the walls in one of those won't support the weight of a Rofco? :). They must weigh a ton, won't it take some major structural measures to attach one to a wall? Anyway, good luck and have fun in Belgium. I'm really looking forward to your blogposts about it! And recently I've started eyeing my gardenschuurtje, wondering if I could turn it into a bakhuisje...
By the way: during your research, did you come across any other good free-standing ovens smaller than a Rofco?
I wish! I have a wonderful apartment on the edge of the city center though :-)
A smaller model ROFCO could still be possible on my wall, the bigger ones... not really! Otherwise I still have a space on top of the dishwasher, that would fit all the other models.
Ah, you're another Dutchie! Great, I'm kind of looking around for fellow Dutch bakers here lately!
Actually it was ROFCO that came up as one of the few ovens that are not huge. The smallest model, the B5 weighs in at 22 kilo's (37B/60D/44H)I am leaning towards the B10 (20cm higher).
There are other ovens out there, but at prices that are mindboggling. Rofco seems to have found a very intersting niche!
Oh! What I would give to have a garden house or the likes of it. Go ahead, you have my blessing!
Freerk
Lucky you, new oven with fancy functions! I just saw their website, but they really look great! I wish I could get an oven like that here, too, but they don't have a supplier in UK. In Japan, where there're so many keen homebakers are, you can buy various kinds of ovens just like those for homebakers. A typical case of basic economic principle; demand and supply balance....
Look forward to your report on ROFCO test-bake!.....seriously!
best wishes
lumos
ETA: Additional dose of salt into your wound after reading fournwater post below......
You don't have to worry about sprayed water or steam breaking your precious baking stone....if it's made of cordierite!
::runs:: :p
I will most certainly report on the test bake here!
Greater London huh? The manufacturer is in Belgium, so not too far away (and close to the chunnel...).
Just to tease you:
it's 400 miles (with some water in between...) Maybe it's time for a nice weekend in France/Belgium?
freerk
Well, my hubby goes to Amesterdam on business almost every week, so if you could get another one for me, I can send him to your place to collect it.
God, I wish things were as easy as that! No, even they had a stockist in UK, it won't fit to my present kitchen. Just a few months ago, I tried to buy a new oven (double fuel type with gas and electricity), but in the end I had to give it up for all sorts of complicated technical reasons. (Do you want to know in details? Do you have two hours?) So for a new oven, I need a new house....
lumos
Let's get a new house!
Freerk,
I wouldn't mind it if our parallel universe brought me beautiful bread as you just baked,
or a ROFCO oven, for that matter!
So happy to hear about your singing loaf!
:^) from breadsong
Thanks Breadsong!
It's always great to have them singing to you before you eat them (and it wasn't even my b'day) ;-)
Freerk
That's a thick stone! I suggest you get yourself a laser temp gauge so you can check the surface temp of the stone during pre heating. If you have a conventional (non fan) oven I suspect it will take at least an hour and a half to get it stable at baking temps. I usually set the oven to the highest setting for pre heating and turn it down just before loading to the desired baking temperature.
Eric
Yeah, I got one of those. I have a fan in my oven.
I'm curious to see what temp it will reach and still contemplating what formula to use for the "maiden bake" :-)
Freerk
That is indeed a massive stone. How much does it weigh? What are the dimensions? I too am curious about how long it takes to preheat.
Was the "snug fit" intentional? Ideally the heated oven air should be able to freely circulate around the stone. The conventional wisdom is to allow at least an inch space on all sides of the stone.
That said, in my "smallish" oven, I have slightly less than an inch on two sides(front/back) of my stone, and maybe slightly more than an inch on the side walls, and things seem to bake almost perfectly. Actually the "fit" looks very similar to yours.
Congrats again.
Hey Frost,
This one is 39 x 30 x 4. It doesn't weigh too much: about7 or 8 kilo's (I'm bad at guessing weight!)
I had it cut to fit my oven rack. It has about 2 inches space on each side and about 3 in the back, so air circulation shouldn't be a problem.
I can't wait until the weekend to give this stone a good spin!
Freerk
Making sure it doesn't contact water when it's hot has already been mentioned. But even keep in mind that it isn't just cold water you need to be careful of. Even hot water from a pan you might use as a steam source can cause your stone to snap. Also, if you use a spritzer to add steam to your oven, be sure to prevent the mist from contacting the stone. Trust me - that's all from experience.
Thanks for the tip! I WILL be very careful with water. Next week I'm picking up my repaired KitchenAid that I wrecked because I WASN'T careful (not with water in that case), so I've learned my lesson, at least for some time...
It looks like a quick spray, rush, rush, the way I normally do it, is out of the question with this stone! What steaming method would be the safest?
Freerk
Tips (at least I hope so:-) from me to you:
Great tips Chuck!
This weekend, for the maiden bake, I'm going to probe the surface temp and see how it does, and how long it will take to properly heat up. My educated guess is that it will be somewhere around an hour and something. My much thinner stone reaches temp within 30-40 minutes, and doubling that would get me there, more or less, I guess.
Thanks again,
Freerk
A late comer to an interesting thread :)
I always think of getting a thick baking stone like that, but I don't think that it is availabile in my area...so what I have been using is the thin one (for pizza?). However, can you please advise if there is going to be significant difference in baking bread? I'm quite happy with the overspring I have with my sourdough...will the thick stone encourage a new level of overspring?
Thanks!
Michelle
Hey Michelle,
I'm just as curious as you when it comes how noticeable the differences are going to be.
I expect a slightly bigger oven spring, nothing spectacular actually.
I will be baking a Manitoba Tortano (a potential high riser) and a miche tomorrow (to see the stone's effect on a bold bake and crust). Can't wait to fire up the oven tomorrow!
I'll keep you posted
Freerk
Please do post the result! Thanks!
Michelle
And it was actually singing? Wow!
O yeah, bread sings. Ask breadsong! :-)
Thanks
Freerk
Very pretty. I like the couronne a lot. That shape makes some really wonderful breads.
Re: preheat: I find they take a long, long time to get to temp. (mine's 3 cm thick and takes about 70 minutes), so I usually bake something like a banana bread or a pie before I crank the oven really high, something that benefits from the preheat instead of just wasting all that energy.
Yes, it does take a long time and energy. I'm still contemplating which breads would really benefit and which wouldn't really mind the thinner stone.
I did bake a double batch to keep wasting energy down (and my bill). And I sometimes use the residual heat for a nice and easy fluffy thingie, like a cake or cookies. But not this time alas, because the freezer is full!
Thanks for your compliments!
Freerk
Especially that Manitoba tortano (how do you get that name anyway)!
hmm...I guess I'll stick with my thin stone for now as I don't feel comfortable heating an empty oven for nothing!
Thanks for sharing! By the way, your other baked products look fantastic as well!
Michelle
Hey Michelle
The Tortano is in Maggie Glezer's Artisan Baking book, all the way in the back, and a bit hidden, but I actually find it one of the most interesting breads in the book (next to the Filone). She makes it with "bread flour" and I use manitoba, that is about the only difference.
Thanks for your compliments!
Freerk
I. WANT. THE. FORMULA. OF. MANITOBA TORTANO......Please!!!!!!!! That looks absolutely gorgeous, Freerk! I used to buy a Tortano just like yours from an excellent baker in Borough Market (London), but for some reason they changed the formula (or whatever...) and their's is not as good as it used to be at all. And it costed me more than ₤4.- to buy just one small loaf a few years ago, so to be able to bake such a gorgeous bread by yourself at a fraction of the price definitely justify the price you paid for your stone. So stop thinking about other cheaper option you could've got.
.....and what's more, your stone will be thick enough to serve as your tombstone when the need arises, too. :p
Very expectantly awaits for your report on a new oven, next!
best wishes,
lumos
Hey Lumos,
It's in Maggie Glezer's Artisan baking. Do you own that book?
If not.. let me know, I'll send you a message!
Freerk
p.s. I actually like the idea of having a baking stone for my tombstone! I was going to shove myself into an oven, but this might be a better option ;-)
Oh, is it same as Royal Crown's Tortano in her book? Yup, I have that book, though I haven't tried it yet. And it's definitely in my 'breads to bake' list.....for a very long time, which is getting unmanageably long at the alarming speed.... Why do you call it Manitoba Tortano?
So....are you getting an over that is big enough for your cremation? It'd take a long time to pre-heat it, you know.....But then again, you have a thick baking stone to match that! :p
lumos
ETA: Sorry, I missed your post to Michelle above explaining the naming. So...what's manitoba? The only manitoba is a province in Canada. Surely your oven is not big enough for that!?
"manitoba flour" on google will give you all the info you need ;-)
It is indeed a (strong) flour from the province of Manitoba, Canada.
The formula in Glezer for the Tortano is perfect, I think, also when you make it with a more regular flour. It has potato in it, and that always gives it a creamy texture I really like.
Creamy crumb and crackly crust, that's what I like about this bread. Try it out, I'm curious how it will turn out!
Freerk
Thanks, Freerk.
So, it's quite strong flour, then. I use this flour which is 100% Canadian wheat flour, but I mainly use this to make bagels because it's so strong (15% protein) , never to bread which I want light crumb with large holes. What's the protein level of the flour you used for this?
Yeah, the Tortano I used to buy had small chunks of potato in it, too. They often used purple potato like these which looked really attractive against creamy colour of the crumb. Their current Tortano has no potato chunks and the crumb is much softer and fluffy, with no large random holes at all. Even the crust is softer. Really boring....
It looks like I've got to move up MG's Tortano recipe much higher on my 'bread to bake' list, then. Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I've been waiting for someone to assure me that recipe really works in a domestic oven. Much appreciated.
lumos
I usually use the strong Manitoba (= plus-minus 15%) together in a mix with the more regular flours. This time I did a 100% Manitoba to see the new stone's effect. I wanted to film a time lapse during the oven spring, and I did, but I choose the wrong angle (nothing much to see). So next timeI'll set it up correctly and post that video!
Move that Tortano to the top of the list! And purple potatoes is a great idea.
It's a big bread though! I usually cut it up in reasonable chunks and it goes into the freezer asap after cooling down completely. The crusty crust on this bread is wonderful, but it doesn't last very long! be warned ;-)
Freerk
My usual mix for this kind of bread is 75-80% strong flour (around 13% protein) and 20-25% plain flour (around 11.5% protein). So it's really amazing 15% protein flour could achieve that kind of great crumb. Do you think it's purely due to the new baking stone effect? ::already excited for the prospect of future video::
Whatever a recipe says, I always scale up/down the ingredients, so that I get 500-600g dough, which is an ideal size for our household.
Yeah, Tortano I used to buy was like that, too; the crust turning softer only a day later. A similar thing happens with a cake baked with fresh fruits inside. Maybe the moisture from potato/fruits gradually seeps to the surface..... But the crust stayed fresh longer, though. Do you find that with your tortano, too?
lumos
Most home made bread (without enhancers, pure and honest) lose their crunch quite fast, but I'm okay with that. I have my ways to get some crunch back!
Freerk
The tortano definitely lost its crispness much quicker than other breads with similar crust, in my experience. Sorry, I'm quite adamant about this. So there!! :p
You're lucky to have access to the Manitoba flour. The local flour I get (also Canadian flour) has only 13% protein. Of course it is still of superior quality and I'm quite happy with it.
Couldn't wait for your video ;)
Cheers,
Michelle
13% is just as wonderful! It's all in the mix and in developing a nice dough.
I feel very happy that I have found a reliable source. Ever since, a lot of formulas I have been working on started to make a lot more sense.
Next time hopefully with a video!
Freerk
Great breads, great photography, great gallery, almost want to reach out and pick some!
Salma
thank you Salma!